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huh?? Have to size more than once..

So I had clear weather today and was able to get a few firings on some brand new Laupua brass. I ran into this "thing" as I was firing to gauge my chamber size:

Using a Redding body die, I found that I have to run some of the cases through the body die 2-3 times before the shoulder bumps back to where I want it and some don't want to give up the last 0.001". Also, the first pass through the die is quite hard. Not, rip-off-the-head hard… but worse than I've experienced an a long time (30yrs hand loading).

the questions are:
1) is having to run the case through the die 2-3 times normal?
2) should I not expect better than +/- .002 tolerance (shoulder measurement after bumping is all done) in doing this?

Now the data:

1) Savage 6.5-284
2) Brand new Laupua Brass that has been through this sequence:
  • measure shoulder w horn comparitor, 1.7995- 1.8400")
  • expand, trim and gentle (3 passes) neck turn
  • neck size, seat (wilson)
  • shoot, measure shoulder (1.8025-1.8060
  • neck size, seat (wilson)
  • shoot, measure shoulder (1.8035 - 1.8060
  • neck size, seat (wilson)
  • shoot, measure shoulder (all 1.8055, with 3 @ 1.8065
3) Bump shoulder back with Redding Body die. RCBS JR, slight cam-over. Imperial wax. I have the comp shell holder set, but didn't need it for .002" bump.
I'm bumping back to a target of 1.80455 -1.8060. 7/10 measure 1.8050+/- 0.001. The 3 longest Just don't want to come down.. unless perhaps I adjust the die (groan…).

The load was 42gn IMR4350, which is the starting load for Sierra 140gn Gamekings. CCI BR2

Other intel:
0) I'm new to the bump die thing My object is to just get chamber length, and then bump back 1-2 thou. My other rifles, I've always just necked, and then FL when things get tight.
1) The cases go through the die very rough on the first pass, and the hang-up is near the head.
2) After firing, the case just above the groove is 0.5000" precisely, and after sizing it will come down to 0.4990" precisely (measured with mit 0.0005" caliper)
3) Using the comp shell holder set properly, the shoulder will actually grow a lot, If I start with the lease impactive holder (+.010) which doesn't even touch the shoulder
4) After all the firing and sizing, concentricity of the brass is very nice (in my book…) under 0.0005"
5) I finds it odd that for such "little bump, I don't require one of the comp shell holders. Using a Hornady FL die sends the shoulder back to 1.8000!!
6) I bought the bump die used on this site.

I add all this data because someone will surely ask. Ask on if there is more required….
 
Is the die all the way down and camming on the shellholder? If it is you are going to have to take a few thousandths off die or shellholder. Is the body die scratching the brass? If not maybe it needs cleaned and polished a little. What sizing lube are you using? I like Imperial sizing wax. Matt
 
We ran into inconsistent shoulder bumps from the same die setting for a couple of magnum calibers 7mm WSM & .338 Lapua), with relatively new brass. We figured the problem was variance in the hardness of new brass, from the same lot, due to inconsistent annealing at the factory. To solve the problem my friend purchased a case annealing machine, two torch, that pauses cases in the flames for an adjustable amount of time. That took care of it. We were able to set up the machine so that the shoulder bumps were very close, and he still had decent bullet seating force.
 
Is the die all the way down and camming on the shell holder? If it is you are going to have to take a few thousandths off die or shell holder
A: Yup, slight cam-over... yeah, the idea of doing working the die just bums me out, lol! I have lee, rcbs and horn shell holders also… matter of fact that might be part of the problem, I'm NOT using a "basic " redding...I'll see if there's a difference…

Is the body die scratching the brass? If not maybe it needs cleaned and polished a little.
A: Its really hard to tell… on the 2nd/3rd stroke, things go much smoother.

What sizing lube are you using? I like Imperial sizing wax.
A:Me too, that's what I'm using. None on the neck or shoulder.
 
Boyd, that's what I was thinking, and was interested to see if someone else would "go there"… and am hoping that's not "it", LOL!!!

What do you think of the web (I think that's what its called, the case just above the extraction groove..) area expansion (item #2 in the bottom "intel" section)?
 
Annealing will help. The problem is your press is flexing. The best way to deal with that is redding competition shell holders. They allow you to set the die for a hard cam over, essentially preloading the press. then you adjust your bump by swapping out the different shellholders. Also, I know they is a huge imperial was following. I have used it for years, but hornady one shot in the paste form is slicker and always gives me more consistent shoulder bump. Also, take a little polishing compound and a shotgun bore mop and polish the inside of the die. I do it to all my dies, it reduces the sizing force and helps with consistency. Just some ideas for you.
 
When I first started reloading, I had a very hard time getting consistent shoulder bumps and headspace…

What it turned out to be (thanks to the guys here on this board) was the fact that my die was not coming into contact with the shell holder even though it was set correctly (was also using a Redding Type-S FL sizer without the bushing). The reason is when you need to use significant force to resize, there is enough give in the threads where the die is screwed into the press that you cannot get down low enough to consistently stop after contact with the shell holder. The suggested solution is to use the Redding Competition Shell holder. These shell holders are thicker and so “meets” the resizing die easier. By using different thickness shell holder you can then adjust headspace. My variation used to be in the 5-10 thousands but now it is 1 thousands or less.

I would suggest you use the comp shell holder.
 
First of all, I use calipers, but digital are not more accurate than dial. That .0005 is the equivalent of the needle of a dial caliper being half way between marks, and actually gives less information. Having said that, precise is a word that should really belong to your .0001 mic. The back of your die seems to be a really good fit for your chamber. The whole thing about case datum to head growing as you adjust toward the die setting is very real, and seeing this for the first time, a learning experience. If you think about it, with your die set too high to bump, you are squeezing the body of the case with nothing to restrict the movement of the shoulder until the die is set low enough for that part of the die to contact, and then move the case shoulder. I usually load at the range, and if I can, I use one case to find the maximum head to shoulder measurement, by neck sizing and firing (stout load) until the measurement stabilizes at its maximum. If I have to load once fired cases, without the ability to do this, I survey the fired cases, size the longest one (at datum line) setting the shoulder where it was fired, and then check fit. If the bolt closes as I want, I use that as my target length, understanding that the case that was the longest, is probably the softest, and the same die setting will not work for the harder cases in the set, which will require readjustment.
 
'malibu and jlow, Yes, I started with the comp shell holders, working from the 0.010 down to the 0.002. The effect (as expected) was to actually grow the cases. It surprised me that the .002 just about got me home, and resorting the the regular holder (I think its an RCBS… perhaps part of the intrigue..) is what eventually got me int the neighborhood of where I wanted to be.

I did bump with a FL die in ages past, but nuked it for the wish-washy-ness. I skip's shimmed it up, but didn't like the variability induced by no shell-holder contact.

Boyd;, Understood on the caliper. I do have a .0001 dial… maybe I'll do a little homework with it… And yes I am hunting for the fit you describe.

fun fun fun!!! (until things don't work, lol!!)
 
Grind .005'' off the bottom of the die and use the redding shell holders, set it up for a hard cam over. Also, I find if I size quickly I get better results than slowly working the press.
 
A couple of things:
This may not be of any use, but if your press handle stops at the top of your ram's travel, leaving the case in the die longer will have different results than if you reverse the handle right away. Also, if you apply something like CaseLube II with your fingers, a heavy coat will give more bump than a very light one. Recently, one way that I judge the similarity of cases to put together sets to use on a target, is to size them all and then gauge the bump. Since I only bump .001 or less, if a hard case (which will show up by having significantly less to no bump) is in the group, the bolt will close with a different feel on the round that was loaded with it, and it is likely that that shot will enlarge the group.
 
What you're experiencing is what Point Blank BR competitors see all the time......different cases will change in their ability to retain the came hardness as they are resized. They use the same 10 -15 cases throughout the match.....reloading them an average of 4-5 x. To compensate, they use a Chas. Hood Press with a die adjustment which is simpler than adding/ removing shims. I believe 21st Century just began to market a similar product.
PRECISE annealing by machine after every (or every other - depending how much your die must size) firing is the only other cure.
 
I just reread your post and I saw that you use a RCBS jr. press. One time I went to my buddies to help him get ready for a match. He sized the cases in one press and when done he said you put the bullets in with the other press. It was a junior press and I couldn't get consistent results. Those bullets varied badly. Maybe its the press. There was a lot of slop in his press. Matt
 
FWIW- Nothing good comes out from dies that are mismatched to the chamber....it is a never-ending PITA.
Unless, I missed it....what are you using to NS and then FLS? Tight neck chamber? I am a firm believer in KISS and FLS every time.
 
Boyd', Understood on the ram dwell and the lube. I've been seeing this…

dkhunt, Yeah, I think I'm stuck with the Jr for a while.. hoping the comp shell holder/firm ram contact will help me get all I can out of it..

LHSmith, I've been using wilson neck and seating dies. And this is a plain jane factory Savage not a tight-necked. And I do like the idea of case selection by "bump-ability".

Interesting tidbit here… late last night I ran the uncooperative cases through my old Hornady FL die using the comp holders… "ding" got the long cases to bump back with the rest of the bunch (ie., back another thou.) I did notice that the cases went into the die easier, perhaps there was a little diameter expansion that allowed the shoulder to scoot back. Not offering this as is "switch everything to hornady die and use comp shell holders and all the worlds problems are solved", just as some intel.
 
It is common for PPC shooters that use light weight presses at the range, to have their shell holders shortened quite a bit, so that they can insert their cases far enough in the die to bump their shoulders. This issue is why, for those who reload, setting a chamber to absolute minimum headspace may not be the best choice. New brass is going to have to stretch some on the first firing, so if you are somewhere between min and max headspace on the barrel, it makes it more likely that you will be able to bump, without modifying equipment. I disagree with the whole heavy toggle thing. To me that is abusing equipment instead of making it fit, which may require modification. Luckily, I have a couple of friends with lathes, so if and when I need to modify a shell holder, it is a small matter for them to do it.
 
First make sure the body die is adjusted so that the shell holder contacts the base of the die when the ram is at the top of its stroke when resizing a case .
 

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