How to Lower Powder and Primer Prices?
- Thread starter Dgd6mm
- Start date
urbanrifleman
Site $$ Sponsor
Archery is the way to go. Saves your hearing too.
Prices will remain high (higher) because of this
Vista Outdoor sold its sporting products business to the Czechoslovak Group (CSG) in a $2.23 billion deal. The sale included the brands CCI, Federal, HEVI-Shot, Remington, and Speer.
Hunt deer with a knife.(friend did this). Climb tree, jump out of tree. Stab deer to death.
Didnt go as planed.
Yah, I'm pretty sure that Czech guy is just a proxy for an investment firm out of London. Which would make total sense. It wouldn't surprise me if it's not some intelligence agency front company. CIA or Mossad would be my guess.
Do you think there actually wanting to produce product and make dollars or something else ?
urbanrifleman
Site $$ Sponsor
I think that anyone with trillions would want total control of ammunition manufacturing in America. Ultimately, it's a national security issue isn't it? A monopoly on ammunition? And the very fact these consolidations took place without a peep from the government, is not good for America. Either consumers or patriots.
Monopolies are completely un-American. And always bad. Monopolies on ammunition and firearms, and the commerce around both, are infinitely worse.
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https://defence.czechoslovakgroup.com/en/products Pretty good cover story just so a London investment company can buy American ammo makers. I think the Brits gave up on owning gun and ammo makers in the USA after they lost so much on Smith and Wesson. Now that an idiot isn't running S&W it's been making money for years.
divingin
Gold $$ Contributor
Ok! I grabbed a 9 iron for close in killing, put out some corn and drew them in!
I charged in, swinging for a kill!
View attachment 1637792
They ran away!
Sounds like you need to work on your swing. Or maybe your stance. Or just give up and move on to the 19th doe.
urbanrifleman
Site $$ Sponsor
Foreign owned, bad
Monopoly, bad
Why can’t the USA make stuff!!! Too many alphabet agencies. I don’t know what sort of mine they get the ingredients for powder from. I’m assuming the USA can find lead here.
The problem with canister powder for reloading is that there is an oligopoly for that market in the US.
All canister smokeless powder distribution is controlled by 3 companies:
- Hodgdon (Hodgdon/IMR/Winchester/Accurate/Ramshot/Alliant)
- Shooters World
- Nammo (Vihtavuori)
The one exception I know of is Midwest Powder sold by American Reloading, but I believe their powder is from demilling (though I could be wrong)
During the last panic buying cycle, Hodgdon figured out that our sorry behinds will buy their most popular products at pretty much any price they set. Furthermore they started selling said products direct, cutting out the retail channel and directly pocketing the inflated profits.
I have a feeling that if we were able to see the financial results from Hodgdon for the last 3 years we would be shocked.
So they are making a lot of money - good for them.
Yes, but the problem with the oligopoly in the US canister powder market is that it is extremely difficult for new players to enter the market. At this point there are very few canister powders not already controlled by one for the existing 3 distributors (perhaps Bofors and Norma would be available) and the investment / infrastructure needed for importing, storing, repackaging and distributing canister powder is significant. Not to mention the barrier of entry to become a powder manufacturer in the US...
Shooters World managed to do it by becoming the US distributor for the Lovex powders but that brought the oligopoly from 2 companies to 3. And they quickly figured out the skewed market will tolerate them selling 8 lbs of powder for $500 (checks notes - apparently now increased to $600).
If this was a level market, with reasonable barriers of entry, there would already be new players entering at these profit margins. But it is not a level market with reasonable barriers of entry, so the oligopoly has undue power in artificially controlling pricing.
We sing the praises of Vihtavuori in that Nammo has so far not implemented the same greedflation increases as the 2 other companies, but there is really nothing preventing them from doing so. They could raise the price of their powder to $60/lb and there would be no recourse. No new players entering the market trying to undercut the competition, because there are no other sources of canister powder that is not already controlled by the existing oligopoly (again, perhaps with the exception of Norma and Bofors).
Compare this to the primer situation. The same greedflation increases initially took place for primers (especially by CCI and Federal) but the primer distribution market has a significantly lower barrier of entry. There is a big difference in getting permits, storage and infrastructure for distributing 20 pallets of primers, compared to what is needed for distribution, storage and repackaging of canister powder.
A cottage industry has come into existence where industrious parties have become non-exclusive distributors of primers from other countries (brands such as Ginex, Magtech, RUAG, EXAKT, Fiocchi, Murom etc.). There is a large supply of such primers which has driven down their prices, which in turn is forcing CCI and Federal to lower their prices.
Remember the nonsense of $120 per brick of CCI 400 small rifle primers, plus shipping and hazmat - limit 1?
That silliness is now gone. Sure, CCI primers are still ridiculously overpriced but the prices of primers are falling because there is a more level playing field, allowing additional players to enter the market and sell comparable products at lower prices.
Ammoseek is showing 40-50 results of primers priced between 3 and 5 cents a piece.
Primer prices are coming down because of a comparatively healthy market environment. Greedflation drove up profit margins to the point where crafty individuals and companies found it worthwhile to go through the effort to become licensed to import and sell / distribute primers from new sources. The increased supply of products is driving prices down.
For canister powder that healthy market does not exist because of the 3 company oligopoly. Now just wait for Hodgdon to buy Shooters World (or god forbid Nammo) and it will only get worse.
Edit: Thanks to urbanrifleman for pointing out Alliant is distributed by Hodgdon
All canister smokeless powder distribution is controlled by 3 companies:
- Hodgdon (Hodgdon/IMR/Winchester/Accurate/Ramshot/Alliant)
- Shooters World
- Nammo (Vihtavuori)
The one exception I know of is Midwest Powder sold by American Reloading, but I believe their powder is from demilling (though I could be wrong)
During the last panic buying cycle, Hodgdon figured out that our sorry behinds will buy their most popular products at pretty much any price they set. Furthermore they started selling said products direct, cutting out the retail channel and directly pocketing the inflated profits.
I have a feeling that if we were able to see the financial results from Hodgdon for the last 3 years we would be shocked.
So they are making a lot of money - good for them.
Yes, but the problem with the oligopoly in the US canister powder market is that it is extremely difficult for new players to enter the market. At this point there are very few canister powders not already controlled by one for the existing 3 distributors (perhaps Bofors and Norma would be available) and the investment / infrastructure needed for importing, storing, repackaging and distributing canister powder is significant. Not to mention the barrier of entry to become a powder manufacturer in the US...
Shooters World managed to do it by becoming the US distributor for the Lovex powders but that brought the oligopoly from 2 companies to 3. And they quickly figured out the skewed market will tolerate them selling 8 lbs of powder for $500 (checks notes - apparently now increased to $600).
If this was a level market, with reasonable barriers of entry, there would already be new players entering at these profit margins. But it is not a level market with reasonable barriers of entry, so the oligopoly has undue power in artificially controlling pricing.
We sing the praises of Vihtavuori in that Nammo has so far not implemented the same greedflation increases as the 2 other companies, but there is really nothing preventing them from doing so. They could raise the price of their powder to $60/lb and there would be no recourse. No new players entering the market trying to undercut the competition, because there are no other sources of canister powder that is not already controlled by the existing oligopoly (again, perhaps with the exception of Norma and Bofors).
Compare this to the primer situation. The same greedflation increases initially took place for primers (especially by CCI and Federal) but the primer distribution market has a significantly lower barrier of entry. There is a big difference in getting permits, storage and infrastructure for distributing 20 pallets of primers, compared to what is needed for distribution, storage and repackaging of canister powder.
A cottage industry has come into existence where industrious parties have become non-exclusive distributors of primers from other countries (brands such as Ginex, Magtech, RUAG, EXAKT, Fiocchi, Murom etc.). There is a large supply of such primers which has driven down their prices, which in turn is forcing CCI and Federal to lower their prices.
Remember the nonsense of $120 per brick of CCI 400 small rifle primers, plus shipping and hazmat - limit 1?
That silliness is now gone. Sure, CCI primers are still ridiculously overpriced but the prices of primers are falling because there is a more level playing field, allowing additional players to enter the market and sell comparable products at lower prices.
Ammoseek is showing 40-50 results of primers priced between 3 and 5 cents a piece.
Primer prices are coming down because of a comparatively healthy market environment. Greedflation drove up profit margins to the point where crafty individuals and companies found it worthwhile to go through the effort to become licensed to import and sell / distribute primers from new sources. The increased supply of products is driving prices down.
For canister powder that healthy market does not exist because of the 3 company oligopoly. Now just wait for Hodgdon to buy Shooters World (or god forbid Nammo) and it will only get worse.
Edit: Thanks to urbanrifleman for pointing out Alliant is distributed by Hodgdon
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urbanrifleman
Site $$ Sponsor
Ugh. Will update my post to reflect this even sadder fact.
jelenko
Gold $$ Contributor
I hope so!
Jayplace
Gold $$ Contributor
I question your belief, "They started selling said products direct, cutting out the retail channel and directly pocketing the inflated profits."
The retail channels still exist and each store front or retailer that wishes to sell powder still does. The manufactures sell in large quantities to distributors who in turn sell to the retail buyer. In many/most cases. The distributors buy in pallet or lot quantity and sells to the retailer in multiples of bottles or jugs. The retailer usually sells individual items or maybe two's. The customers buying one bottle of powder doesn't then get hit with a hazmat charge unless it's a special order.
My guess is Manufacture often retail powder for the people who don't live near a retail outlet that normally only carry certain powders or for speciality items.
Sacrifice a country to a murderous dictator so we can have low powder prices? Seems short sighted and selfish to me. The cheapest war we will ever fight with Russia in terms of American lives and dollars is to have someone else fight it.
Yes Urban it totally matters who owns the monopoly!!! If it's someone who is looking for over the top profits at the expense of the industry, not good. If it is somebody who is looking for a fair profit and centuries of good relations with it's customers good. Think Vihtavuori. ^^^^^ Tom yet there could have been no war at all, no 1.5 million deaths, no expenses, just peace. Yet the American people wanted a president, that needed to be institutionalized. And Europe wanted to spend our money for defense so they could waste theirs on woke. And this like war like several of the wars in my lifetime, will have no winner. Just losers. I struggle to think of anything good that has happened in the last 4 presidential cycles.
Dolomite
Silver $$ Contributor
Shooters are hoarders in fear of missing out. When people stop hoarding/buying drops the demand and force sellers to either reduce prices or have sales on products. As the demand drops store sales drop and they forced to lower prices or have discounts to keep the cash flow coming in. They too will be fighting for consumer dollars.
Precision rifle, Fclass and BR start to pick up increases the demand for bullets brass primers and powder. There comes a point where the consumers will stop buying and stores will have excess inventory on the shelves which they need turn into sales to keep the cash moving.
As interest rates rise the borrowing may or may not decline. But there is a point where consumer debt and interest rates will drive prices down, doesn’t help that costs for everything is going up but that is in part of companies taking advantage of consumer buying and greed kicks in to make higher profits.
Prime examples is oil, prices drop but gas prices keep going up. Gas companies are racking in record profits.
Hoard your money for a recession and buy when prices are lower. Buy when economy drops!!!
Precision rifle, Fclass and BR start to pick up increases the demand for bullets brass primers and powder. There comes a point where the consumers will stop buying and stores will have excess inventory on the shelves which they need turn into sales to keep the cash moving.
As interest rates rise the borrowing may or may not decline. But there is a point where consumer debt and interest rates will drive prices down, doesn’t help that costs for everything is going up but that is in part of companies taking advantage of consumer buying and greed kicks in to make higher profits.
Prime examples is oil, prices drop but gas prices keep going up. Gas companies are racking in record profits.
Hoard your money for a recession and buy when prices are lower. Buy when economy drops!!!
Attachments
Trump kicked that dumb ass Zelensky out of the White House today, might could reduce the amount of gunpowder being burned. Tariffs, who knows. Monopolies, everyone knows what that’s about.
I’d be interested to know. If there were a poll. What do people keep in their own personal stock. Do most people shoot, then buy components. Like buying milk. Or do people have a good 15 year supply? Seems like people shoot paycheck to paycheck.
I’d be interested to know. If there were a poll. What do people keep in their own personal stock. Do most people shoot, then buy components. Like buying milk. Or do people have a good 15 year supply? Seems like people shoot paycheck to paycheck.
BarnDweller
Gold $$ Contributor
I have lots Hodgdon powder but it seems like I always need something I don't have and cant find.
I have seen people talk about Vihtavuori powders. Where could someone find first of all loading data for those powders and where is it sold online?
Thank You
Del
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