How much does action play into accuracy?

[JamesnTN]

James - pop quiz: Do the winners shoot with top equipment because it's necessary or because they can afford it and they have time to practice more than others?

I'd don't know the financial Status of the top winners so I can't comment on that, but in my experience as being one of those in that winners circle it came down to the equipment, lots of practice and sometimes luck played into that as well.

 

[JamesnTN]

Here's a read of my records and equipment back in 2004


http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek030.html

 

[people]

I do not know what it takes to win but if you can not read wind I can tell you this. You will not win.

 

[broncman]

Benchrest and F class, FT/R are very different but also much the same.

It is a FACT that their are factory rifles capable of greater accuracy than the beginners ability to read the wind .....so please stop alluding to the fact you have to have a custom action!

Sure if you have the money upfront go ahead. But are you competing now with the FIRST rifle you started with? Same barrel and all? Dare say not!

To the OP....when your wind skills at 1000 exceed your rifles ability..then upgrade. If their are budget restraints, the money will be better spent on bullets, powder and practice.

If you have money, and you want a custom action go for it. But untill your wind skills reach the same level or surpass the rifle....wind readers win...not actions.

 

[dragman]

I have had them ALL at one point or another and I have had remingtons, Brownings, Sako's, Savages that all shot well I have had Bats, Lawtons, Rampro, etc that all shoot great too. Here are my reasons for going custom for 2X the price.
-smoother and easier to put a bunch of rounds out fast
-heavier for bigger longer barrels
-better looks
-biggest reason! I can take my Bat for instance and have 5 barrel made for it and change them myself with no worries at all. I wouldn't do that with a none custom action with the same confidence and know that nothing is gonna change.
Savage target action $550ish
Remington after you have it trued $700ish
Customs $1000 and up, But on the resale side they bring more than the others by a larger gap than they $$$ in the first place.

 

[XTR]

The current F-TR national champion shoots a stock Savage target action, and I believe he still uses the AccuTrigger. The others are nice to have, and may be a lot prettier, but a well built Remington or Savage will run with anything out there at 1000 yards.

I've seen Jim's rifle with a Precision rifle stock and Brux barrel, not stock at all.

I didn't mean to imply that Jim's rifle is stock, but that his action is a stock action. The action is the core that we all build on. My rifle last yr, that did manage to win one match at Raton was a stock Remington action with a Krieger barrel, jewel trigger in a McM A5 stock. You don't need a custom action to win.

The whole "look at what is in the winners list" is pretty irrelevant. By the time you get to the point that you are good enough to win a national championship you have probably bought a high end action, not because you need it, but because you want it. At 1000 yards it ain't the gun, there is not a 308 loaded yet that will hold under a 5inch drift per MPH, no 308 will hold the 10 ring if you miss a 1MPH change.

 

[Erik Cortina]

...My rifle last yr, that did manage to win one match at Raton was a stock Remington action with a Krieger barrel, jewel trigger in a McM A5 stock. You don't need a custom action to win.

Did you win?

 

[Erik Cortina]

Ok, it is true that in F-Class you don't need a custom action to win. However, I look at competition shooting for what it is, a luxury. So, I treat it like such.
Do I need Panda actions? I don't think so.
Do I feel my guns are more accurate because of them? I think so.
Have I been beat by factory actions? Yes I have.
At the end of the day when we both shot bad, did I look better doing it? YES I DID! ;D

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I swear I remember reading an article about a short range br shooter testing a savage target action. He could not get it to shoot consistant enough for competition. He did say a trued remington would though. Any one have that article?

 

[6BRinNZ]

OP -
Broncman gives very sensible advice....and probably gets to the intent of your question.

Some of the arguments are due to the confusion around the question - ability to read the wind has nothing to do with accuracy or consistency of an action.

If both shooters are of the same ability and are shooting the same ballistic load and can load with the same level of precision where would you place your money - custom action or factory?

Personally I buy custom actions as time is shorter than money and as my gunsmith says - a good barrel with a "Barnard" will work every time...i.e. I guarantee I can find more posts that relate to issues with factory components than custom.

For instance there are after market bolt heads made for savages (from mem) as the originals at one point were too soft. German Salazar has an article discussing it.

At the end of the day some of the differences between custom and factory are well and truly swallowed up by the conditions, so you can get beaten buy them.....but that's not your question.

 

[AKShooter]

I kind of figured this question would get into a bit of a philosophical answer. Or at least trying to explain something impossible to calculate.

Making a different sport reference, why would pro golfers select only the elite clubs, or any sport for that matter. You get into something that much, or your ability gets to a point that you want the best you can buy. Or the sport gets so competitive that you are willing to "buy" any advantage you can

I eluded to it, but only get to shoot a handful of matches a year, was trying to sort in my head if the extra expense was warranted with the action, I'll always be an amature at my rate (you should see my golf game) but want something competitive too! Or I can "grow into" as wind reading improves. I built a sporting gun on a stiller, so I realize what a custom action "feels" like. And boy, really like the jewell triggers

That said, I'll keep running my savage this year, and will most likely get on the list for a barrel for the future.

Appreciate the thoughts

 

[XTR]

...My rifle last yr, that did manage to win one match at Raton was a stock Remington action with a Krieger barrel, jewel trigger in a McM A5 stock. You don't need a custom action to win.

Did you win?

I won the 3rd match on the first day with a 148-6X. Jim and at least one other person, maybe Dan, had 148-4's. I would say that the points I lost in the other matches were in no way related to the rifle, and I really don't thing the action had anything to do with the cross fire on the last day.

No, I was never in danger of winning the championship, but hey, bringing home a gold medal from any national championship competition, no matter what the sport, is pretty darned cool in my book.

To the original topic, the BR guys measure groups to what 0.01 or something like that. Maybe they can see results on the target that reflect the difference in a high end custom and a factory action, but shooting at an F class or a HP target I don't see it making a measurable difference in your score.

 

[aj300mag]

To the original topic, the BR guys measure groups to what 0.01 or something like that. Maybe they can see results on the target that reflect the difference in a high end custom and a factory action, but shooting at an F class or a HP target I don't see it making a measurable difference in your score.

In short range benchrest we measure groups to the thousandths (.001"). I run four 100 yard group matches a year and in the past five years the majority of matches have been won with a teen aggregate. In ten years of shooting sr bench rest I've never seen a Remington compete in HV/LV class... because they wouldn't be competitive.

 

[MarkS]

AKShooter,

I have been in your place. I started with Factory guns, then custom barrels and turned action. Then a full built on a Remington , 1000yd light gun with a Barrel block. They all shot great. I now have two custom action guns Bat and Stiller both used, you can save a ton of money getting a used gun, you get a stock, action, trigger, it may need a barrel. You can get a Factory to shoot with a Custom, but it is still a factory action, no matter how much you put in it. The Custom actions have a light bolt lift, you can lift with one finger. I my case I did not need a Custom action, but wanted one. I have a Savage target with custom barrels. I can't run it as fast and accurate as the custom action. Shoot the gun you have until you feel it is holding you back. Good luck.

Mark Schronce

 

[XTR]

Shoot the gun you have until you feel it is holding you back. Good luck.

+^

This applies to equipment in any competitive endeavor. Whether it is rifles, pistols, bicycles, tennis racquets, motorcycles, golf clubs, golf balls, or skis. (and I've attempted to be competitive in pretty much every one of those at some time in my life) The average beginner/novice can wear out a piece of good quality gear long before they are limited by their equipment.

The other consideration is whether a beginner will maintain interest in a sport after the first yr or two, or whether you will have the time to invest to be really good. The winners don't just make up a few bullets on Wednesday and win on the weekend. There is a lot of time (and $$) to invest in being competitive in anything.

 

[broncman]

When I started my FT/R 1000 yd journey last fall, I started keeping a log book to see how much money it would take me in equipment, practice, gas, etc to reach Master.....

I quit keeping financial records REAL quick...it is expensive and aint even got a good start yet