How many reloads before annealing
- Thread starter 270WinDude
- Start date
I never saw the purpose on the cases that I fire. They happen to be easy on the brass. .222Rem (lost count long time ago on number of reloads but my records show 35 then I no longer kept track). 30 BR another one I feel is easy on the brass also. 6.5BR too. They all shoot groups that are, for me, really good.
If I felt there was a neck tension problem OR split necks I might consider it but so far NO. I think my reloads are fairly well sorted out and it is ME that is the unknown. Never saw the reason for annealing as it was not needed, same as weighing primers, or chamfering when you have not trimmed a case. Wish fixing ME was as easy as these steps are.
If I felt there was a neck tension problem OR split necks I might consider it but so far NO. I think my reloads are fairly well sorted out and it is ME that is the unknown. Never saw the reason for annealing as it was not needed, same as weighing primers, or chamfering when you have not trimmed a case. Wish fixing ME was as easy as these steps are.
Good grief, it looks like something from Star Trek!!!
How much does it cost?
Many sincere thanks for your reply!!!!
Cam
dcali
Bullet Maker
About $1,400.
Who ever said reloading your own is cheaper . I benchrest only 308 Cal. I was getting 25+ reloads from my cases , I shoot 30 rounds every range trip 3 ten shot groups and I'm done . If one out of the 30 showed any signs , I dump the lot . Never got into heating the neck and shoulder area . I did switch from dry to wet tumbling after 30+ years . I full size using a standard RCBS F/L die with the expander , l leave the expander shaft with alittle wiggle room to self center , sizing is smooth also seating all have the same smooth feel , depending on what cases the neck tension is .003 to .004 . Also never got into neck turning .
I started annealing my brass after every fourth reload, my just be me but I can tell when the neck is getting harder because my trimmer will "chatter" instead of peeling off brass. I use the salt bath method for now but really want a machine like the Annealeez.
Here is what AMP had to say on the subject.
https://www.ampannealing.com/articles/42/annealing-under-the-microscope/
https://www.ampannealing.com/articles/42/annealing-under-the-microscope/
Sounds like small groups were not possible before annealing if you believe some people. If it's a hunting rifle that isn't shot a lot I wouldn't bother annealing. I think the most important thing is to buy a good custom barrel. Kreiger and Bartlein are very popular in short range bench rest. I have a Rem 700 BDL with a Kreiger 6BR barrel on it. With a good load and if I do my part it consistently shoots under .350" weather I anneal or not. Hard for me to believe groups really open up big just because of no annealing. You said neck tension is all over. How do you determine this? I assume you are shooting a non-competition type factory rifle since you mention shooting some factory ammo. Sounds like you are annealing with a torch. I think you can do a good job with a torch if you pay attention to details. If it’s a factory rifle or a lower cost varmint rifle I wouldn’t lay out the cash for an annealer. Try different bullets and powder.
I have to disagree with you. I have shot in a tunnel more than almost anybody out there. Yes you can see it in short range. It’s the logistics of using it at the range when you’re shooting bench rest loading every half an hour. I do it now and others do it now with loading trailers and generators.
Yes it does work at Short range.
Mulligan
Silver $$ Contributor
Not to hijack the thread,
Sounds like some short-range and long-range benchrest shooters see a benefit from annealing.
Does the method of annealing matter; flame, salts, induction???
CW
Yes it does mater name how many people have sent there brass out for hardness testing before when new them after annealing. I have with 3 types of propane and with amp.
You are not doing your brass justice.
Unless you have it tested.
Try doing all of them and then give your opinion. I think it will change.
Sorry about all of you with propane units I was the same.
Like I said if you don’t have an amp don’t Anneal your brass.
Anneal or no anneal, how often. I think it depends on what you call adequate performance. You have to keep in mind that people on this website range from casual shooters to National Champions. Cannot hurt to anneal each firing if you want to spend the time and money for an annealer. I think you need to be able to consistently shoot small groups to see a difference. Could be exceptions?
Lou, so you tell me why annealing with a touch doesn't work.... what does brass mfg. use? I took old Lake City and sized it from 358 to 243 and it never cracked. This was back in the 60's... I have had a lot of success with a Bench Source and neck tension was very uniform. I can't see the difference if it is done right...... jim
Where did I say that I annealing with a torch doesn’t work. I said if you’re not going through the hardness testing process a before and after you have no idea what you’re doing. Your guessing. If you like what you’re doing keep doing it it’s OK there still people out there that use the Commodore or an Atari computer.
Yes brass manufacturers do do hardness testing and they can’t even get it close to duplication that’s why it’s hardness varies from lot to lot.
There are people that are trying to achieve extreme accuracy, in doing so you have to look at every single aspect . Someone might take it partway that’s OK if there’s satisfied with their results .
Yes brass manufacturers do do hardness testing and they can’t even get it close to duplication that’s why it’s hardness varies from lot to lot.
There are people that are trying to achieve extreme accuracy, in doing so you have to look at every single aspect . Someone might take it partway that’s OK if there’s satisfied with their results .
lissen to Lou, lissen to Lou, lissen to Lou...... LISSEN TO LOU!!!
There is NO ONE ON THIS BOARD in any way as qualified as him to have his opinion..... NO ONE.
period.
HE won't tell you, and I can't tell you but believe me, HIS OPINION is worth the opinion of 10,000 people who haven't put his tens of thousands of rounds down an indoor range. While competing at a national level year after year.
I ain't gonna' toot Lou's horn but If I had ALL y'all against Lou's opinion
and a thousand bucks on the line
I'd go with Lou
jus' sayin'
There is NO ONE ON THIS BOARD in any way as qualified as him to have his opinion..... NO ONE.
period.
HE won't tell you, and I can't tell you but believe me, HIS OPINION is worth the opinion of 10,000 people who haven't put his tens of thousands of rounds down an indoor range. While competing at a national level year after year.
I ain't gonna' toot Lou's horn but If I had ALL y'all against Lou's opinion
and a thousand bucks on the line
I'd go with Lou
jus' sayin'
I’ve been requested to weigh in....
I’ve read the papers on the AMP website looked at their videos etc. I offer the following:
AMP agrees with my position that we are “flash” annealing the neck and shoulder area and the temperature must be just higher than 500C (1000 F) to have any effect. It just so happens that a “dull red heat in a darkened room” is about 1000F (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_heat#cite_ref-2) So, this means that unless you see a dull red glow from your case necks, you’re probably wasting your time and gas.
They indicate that case wall (weight distribution) affects their program to be used. They also have data to indicate that brass hardness can still vary substantially even amongst the precision brands. However no indication that this variance is localized or if it materially affects bullet pull. With flame annealing the only variable here is time in the flame and there isn’t the granularity in the actual heat input. Also, with flame annealing, heat distribution could potentially be an issue.
They advocate that you should anneal every shot for consistently low bullet pull. However, Brian Litz indicates that annealing everyshot didn’t make any difference. AMP also indicated that neck expansion is only one (of several, I presume) factors in bullet pull. So, perhaps, would be annealing or lack there of, but I have no data. They also said that there has to be enough cold work present to get annealing by stating that you should size new brass or wait til the second firing.
So, to sum it all up and to answer the OPs question, if my goal was to save the brass because it is rare, or has a lot of preparatory work in it, then I’d anneal every third time. If I wanted to maintain SD on bullet pull anneal every second time. If I was reforming to make a wildcat, anneal before caseforming, then after and every third time thereafter.
But $1400 buys a big bunch of Lapua brass. At 6 firings each, that amounts to 8400 shots.
I’ve read the papers on the AMP website looked at their videos etc. I offer the following:
AMP agrees with my position that we are “flash” annealing the neck and shoulder area and the temperature must be just higher than 500C (1000 F) to have any effect. It just so happens that a “dull red heat in a darkened room” is about 1000F (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_heat#cite_ref-2) So, this means that unless you see a dull red glow from your case necks, you’re probably wasting your time and gas.
They indicate that case wall (weight distribution) affects their program to be used. They also have data to indicate that brass hardness can still vary substantially even amongst the precision brands. However no indication that this variance is localized or if it materially affects bullet pull. With flame annealing the only variable here is time in the flame and there isn’t the granularity in the actual heat input. Also, with flame annealing, heat distribution could potentially be an issue.
They advocate that you should anneal every shot for consistently low bullet pull. However, Brian Litz indicates that annealing everyshot didn’t make any difference. AMP also indicated that neck expansion is only one (of several, I presume) factors in bullet pull. So, perhaps, would be annealing or lack there of, but I have no data. They also said that there has to be enough cold work present to get annealing by stating that you should size new brass or wait til the second firing.
So, to sum it all up and to answer the OPs question, if my goal was to save the brass because it is rare, or has a lot of preparatory work in it, then I’d anneal every third time. If I wanted to maintain SD on bullet pull anneal every second time. If I was reforming to make a wildcat, anneal before caseforming, then after and every third time thereafter.
But $1400 buys a big bunch of Lapua brass. At 6 firings each, that amounts to 8400 shots.
To answer a question from earlier ... I’m using an rcbs single stage press. I’ve only used the propane torch method with my Norma brass but plan on Loading up some with my hardened then annealed Winchester and hornady sometime hopefully sooner than later. I’m sure problem could be something else but I’m almost certain it’s because it’s work hardened and don’t have the spring and I can feel it when seating bullets.
I’m curious the replies from people not annealing, if not then how many loads do you get out of your brass and are you precisely measuring seating depth after each bullet is seated?
I can absolutely tell “tension” or “bullet pull” is effected, I just might not explain it properly. If you seated the bullets yourself then saw the ones that were loose and inspected them in your hands and compared seating depth you could tell too.
I’m curious the replies from people not annealing, if not then how many loads do you get out of your brass and are you precisely measuring seating depth after each bullet is seated?
I can absolutely tell “tension” or “bullet pull” is effected, I just might not explain it properly. If you seated the bullets yourself then saw the ones that were loose and inspected them in your hands and compared seating depth you could tell too.
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.