Not trying to start a debate and I know there is a lot of variables, just curious you flame annealer have you ever timed how long your brass is “ in the flame”
How long in the flame
- Thread starter Bottom Fodder
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RegionRat
Gold $$ Contributor
Because flames transmit heat at different rates, there is no such thing as a standardized time.
Darken the workshop, observe the brass in the flame. Stop as soon as there is an indication of a dull red glow.
By timing that event to the nearest 0.1 second, you will try to keep the flame adjusted the same the next session. But, in the end the time required is really as long as it takes to get the first dull red glow in a darkened shop.
Darken the workshop, observe the brass in the flame. Stop as soon as there is an indication of a dull red glow.
By timing that event to the nearest 0.1 second, you will try to keep the flame adjusted the same the next session. But, in the end the time required is really as long as it takes to get the first dull red glow in a darkened shop.
My main question is "how do know the temp of your flame'? I never hear.read about anyone measuring temperature of the flame,so how can you then determine the duration of exposure to the flame? I tried annealing about 30yrs ago and I have nothing good to say about it from my experience. I haven't annealed anything since. I think it's more important to find and get rid of the reason you're having to anneal.
Good luck and stay safe.
Get some green tempilaq. Paint a line on the inside of the neck. Keep in flame until it melts. Then your done.
RegionRat
Gold $$ Contributor
We know the temperatures of different gases like Methane, Butane, MAP etc., so that isn't really the question.
The main problem is one that falls under thermodynamics and includes the convection coefficient. Since the gas will burn at a standard temperature, but the shape of the flame depends on the nozzle and flow, we can't predict the heat transfer or temperature of the brass.
I went through this every time we set up a production line that annealed brass. The good news is, that Draper Point for brass serendipitously falls at the same temperature required for rapid annealing of thin wall material.
RegionRat
Gold $$ Contributor
Save yourself the trouble.
750F Tempilaq isn't what you want. The 400F is used to stripe the length of the case body as an indicator of how far down we get that heat, but the 750F isn't based on reality, it is internet lore that often gets repeated.
In industry, we have instruments in the metallurgical labs that confirm the heat treat. At home we don't have that luxury. I am retired now, but can affirm that you would have to dwell a long time at 750F to get what you want. If you ever did it this way and it worked, it was because you overshot that 750F and got lucky that you did.
We try to keep the case body below 400F, but the 750F is too low for the typical dwell times in flame.
Try the darkened room and glow some time. YMMV
Thauglor
Silver $$ Contributor
Firing the round causes the case to harden, so the only way to get rid of the need to anneal is to get rid of the need to reload
Or buy new brass all the time.
Lou Murdica
Silver $$ Contributor
I’ll say this again. If you are not using a AMP Annealer you are better of not annealing at all.
I've been reloading since the late '60's for many different calibers from .30-30,.22 Hornet,.223,.25-06,7TCU,.30-06,.308,.300WM,8Mauser,.35Whelen,.458WM,.45/110 and most recently 6PPC(15yrs) and I have NEVER had the NEED to anneal and I don't buy new brass all the time. I have loaded thousands and thousands of rounds including for competition and have NEVER annealed. Right now I'm on my 18th reload for my 6PPC and the brass is going strong. When the time comes eventually,I replace with new brass. I don't follow the "hellfire and brimstone " way of thinking. BTW,my 6PPC's will agg in the 1's even at 200yds.
Good luck and stay safe.
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No disrespect to your accomplishments, but tell that to the thousand of shooters that came before you and disagree. How many records were set before an AMP ever appeared on the scene?
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Coyotefurharvester
Silver $$ Contributor
I'll answer the question, 6-7 seconds. With my torch, my eyes( seeing dull red start in the neck) case rotates 2 turns/second.
DShortt
Gold $$ Contributor
To the OP, darken the room. Completely dark is perfect once you have the torch lit. Your eyes will adjust in a couple of minutes and you'll be able to see well enough for this simple process if you're even slightly organized.
I presume you have a case holder and rotation device selected so I won't mention that. Put the neck in the flame, watch for a definite dull red color. Dunk in water. Repeat.
That's all there is to it. If you see a black tarnish on the necks you're heating them too much. Go for a darker red color, not a brighter red.
There's no 'magic' amount of time but 10-12 seconds is about what it takes me. I just use an old propane torch. No 2 torches will produce the same flame size nor no 2 propane bottles depending on ambient temp, level of liquid in the bottle, etc.
Who cares what the temp of the flame is? The temp of the case neck is all we're concerned about.
Not rocket science. Practice a bit on some scrap brass if you're really worried about it.
I presume you have a case holder and rotation device selected so I won't mention that. Put the neck in the flame, watch for a definite dull red color. Dunk in water. Repeat.
That's all there is to it. If you see a black tarnish on the necks you're heating them too much. Go for a darker red color, not a brighter red.
There's no 'magic' amount of time but 10-12 seconds is about what it takes me. I just use an old propane torch. No 2 torches will produce the same flame size nor no 2 propane bottles depending on ambient temp, level of liquid in the bottle, etc.
Who cares what the temp of the flame is? The temp of the case neck is all we're concerned about.
Not rocket science. Practice a bit on some scrap brass if you're really worried about it.
Thank you sir from simply answering the ? Basically I was just curious if anybody had timed it.
Actually, I’ve been on annealing for about 5 years and happy with my results I was just curious how much time most where seeing needed for there set up
its no big deal unless some needs to make it one
You stole my answer.
I also like post #2.
Coyotefurharvester
Silver $$ Contributor
Tip of the blue touching the neck, because we are annealing the neck.
stavey
Silver $$ Contributor
I used an ugly Annealer for years. However after reading a bit about annealing it was obvious that just hitting 750* was not actually annealing. I felt I was adding an unstable variable to my reloading process. Unless you have a hardness tester it seams you are shooting in the dark. There is a gentleman on YouTube that had some virgin Lapua cases hardness tested . He then modified a Webster hardness tester and used the cases he had tested to convert the Webster values to HV values. If I knew how I would link the video. This is a good idea if consistently resetting your brass to factory hardness is what you are after. This is what makes the AMP so valuable. Here’s a screenshot of the video.
Straightshooter1
Gold $$ Contributor
How long a particular piece of brass is in the flame depends on the amount of mass you're heating and how hot the flame is. For my Lapua .308 cases, it typically takes ~ 4-5 seconds (yes, I've timed it) and I use a pretty hot flame to cut down on the time I'm heating the case up. Even with the same caliber of case, there can be variations within a lot and certainly between different brands (e.g. Winchester brass vs ADG brass). I use the glow method to find the time I need to set my timed speed on the machine.
With the glow method that's been mentioned, when the brass reaches a dull red glow as seen in a darkened room, it's temperature is ~1000°F, which does a good job of resetting the softness. When I first started annealing, I was going for the 750°F that I read so much about. I wasn't getting what I expected out of the annealing process. When the AMP annealer first came out, the demonstration I saw kind of surprised me in that AMP was turning them red (indicating, well above 1000°F), though quickly and for a very short time (as one might expect for that amount of heat). That's when I decided to go for a higher temperature with the flame and glow method, it's worked great ever since.
Since the annealing process is a function of heat + time, the main thing I focus on is a consistent heat and a consistent time. The glow method doesn't tell you what temperature you're actually using, but it doesn't really matter if I'm at 950°F or 1050°F as long those two factors (heat and time) are consistent so that I get consistent results. An induction annealer is very good at producing consistent heat and with accurate timing tends to be better than a good flame annealing. . . but only marginally, IMHO.
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