How have E-targets changed wind calling
- Thread starter dkynoch
- Start date
NZ has been on ETs for quite some time, the crossfire thing would appear to be unique to Aussie, and certainly if the setup is causing crossfires then an inherent delay is built in, so no need to add further delay, although I would suggest that the scores would be even lower if cross fires occur with a built in delay. The extra time that no delay provides means that you can recover from the time delays a cross fire brings.
It makes no sense for shooters to universally agree that a slow marker affects outcomes yet for some in the same breath to state no delay does not have an impact and won't.
Time is a significant factor in the sport, it affects the feel of pressure and decision making. It impacts what conditions you will have to shoot in, when to start and when to stop...among others...
Gstaylorg is correct, the time delay aspect needs to be thought through carefully - its not about what is right in front of us; its about where we want the sport to end up and how we want it to evolve.
.
It makes no sense for shooters to universally agree that a slow marker affects outcomes yet for some in the same breath to state no delay does not have an impact and won't.
Time is a significant factor in the sport, it affects the feel of pressure and decision making. It impacts what conditions you will have to shoot in, when to start and when to stop...among others...
Gstaylorg is correct, the time delay aspect needs to be thought through carefully - its not about what is right in front of us; its about where we want the sport to end up and how we want it to evolve.
.
I agree with shawn on what he said and I think that he has good handle on what is going on. As for weather you set a national record with or without the delay is the differance you might encounter going from one range to another in fact that might be a bigger factor. You still have to read the wind line up the sights and pull the trigger.
Earl Liebetrau
Earl Liebetrau
I noticed a couple things when coaching on e targets. Shoot a slam fire, it still goes goes down range somewhere, Ask Keith G. If shooters make bad shots that go in the 10 ring and don't tell you its still not my fault! Ask Jay C. He does it all the time! There is no difference other than you look at the tablet for 1 second. Spend the other 6 seconds looking at the flags! Or listen for groans, I always like those guys that tip you off to a big wind change.
Turbulent Turtle
F-TR competitor
Yesterday, when I got up off my mat after shooting my final match (#5), I had several people ask me "what are you looking at out there?"
Before I inform you of my reply, let me set the scene for you. This was day 3 of the yearly "South Texas Wind Jamboree and Inclement Weather Festival," also known as TSRA Long Range. On Friday during the team matches, we had a southern wind shifting right and left all day. We had some mirage and I called wind with the flags for the first two shooters, then it was all mirage for the rest of the day.
On Saturday, the south wind continued, but it was mainly from the right and would slow down or speed up. I thought I had it nailed on match #2 and even with a 6 (yes, a 6 at 9 o'clock,) I managed to eke out a 189-something. It was funny because I didn't see anything that would have caused the 6, and I held at the same place and continued with 10, X, 10 to finish the first half.
While I was scoring for a shooter, I noticed the strangest sight I have ever seen on the line. Picture this; the shooter, two positions to my right fires and the smoke from his barrel is going from my right to left at a good clip. Right then the shooter to my left sends his jacketed lead cylinder downrange and his barrel smoke goes from left to right, immediately in front of me. I'm watching smoke going right to left about 10 yards away from me and another puff of smoke going left to right about 5 yards in front. I had to reach down to the ground to pick my jaw up.
By the third match, my earlier indicators were no longer valid and at that point, I could not find anything that worked for me, but I had the 10-ring worried because I had it surrounded; if the goal was to shoot only 9s, I would have had a great score.
On Sunday morning, the wind had changed drastically and was now coming into our faces. It was pretty steady for a change, but it was very brisk. I dropped some shots and just didn't seem to get a solid, dependable read on things. Score was ok, but I was not gaining ground.
On the final match, the wind had increased some but I had noticed that the flags were speaking to me in a manner that I could, if not understand fully, at least I was getting the gist of what they were saying. I started shooting and when I declared for record, my first shot was a 9. Way to start things off on your final string. Undaunted and with nothing to lose at this late stage, I kept up the shooting and whereas the day before I was hearing a litany of "9, so and so on," this time around it was "10, so and so on," punctuated by the odd "X, so and so on." I was spending most of my time on my spotting scope, figuring a hold, and then transitioning to my riflescope and shooting quickly on that hold. As soon as the shot was gone and the bolt was opened, I would be back on my spotting scope, looking at my indicators.
I collected the widest selection of 10s ever. I had some of the fattest 10s you've ever seen. I only got 4 Xs, and I did drop another point around shot 13, it dribbled out the bottom at 6 o'clock. I had noticed that I was dropping and was already favoring high and had resolved to add a click on the scope after that shot. Shoulda, coulda, woulda. I added the click and continued on and finished with a 198-4.
That's when all the questions came.
After the earlier comments on this thread, I was afraid to answer truthfully, lest I be called a bad wind reader or worse. But truth be known, once I started my string, my spotting scope was focused on the line and I was watching the targets on either side of mine. On my left, I had the F-Openers and on my right I had the F-TR shooters. I was on relay two of four so the shooters were quite dependable in their marksmanship. I was not focused on any one particular target, I was just getting a complete picture. When I was transitioning to my riflescope, I also got an idea of what the flags were telling me, and as long as they were mumbling the same story, I just chased my spotter in the 10-ring. As soon as the shot was gone, check the flags and get on the spotting scope. Every once in a while I would hold up, or get on the riflescope, not fire and get back to the spotting scope. Then go back on shoot.
I got some 10s that were morbidly obese, I am here to tell you, but they were 10s and I took them.
So yes, call me a bad wind reader. Tell me I should be drummed out of the “good wind reader fraternity; the ones who never look at other targets.” I don’t care. My story is like the NSA’s story; I was not looking at someone else’s specific target, I was looking at the metadata, the trend in spotters. I banged out my 20 for record pretty quickly, got up and cursed my stupidity at dropping that 9 out the bottom and put away my gear for the day. I did win match #5, the only bright spot for me, in an otherwise dismal individual performance.
Relating this back to the subject at hand, this would have been more difficult with E-targets. Once I got going and figured things out, I guess I could have eschewed the use of the spotting scope and just looked at the tablet. But my Kowa gives me a much better overall picture of the target line and it also showed me the movement of the long grass at the top of the impact berm, the trees beyond and the grass on the 600 yards firing line. All in one picture and that can’t be done with E-targets. I would have needed to look at an extra item and integrate what I was seeing there with what I was seeing in the spotting scope and what the flags were telling me. That would have slowed me down and is more prone to errors.
Before I inform you of my reply, let me set the scene for you. This was day 3 of the yearly "South Texas Wind Jamboree and Inclement Weather Festival," also known as TSRA Long Range. On Friday during the team matches, we had a southern wind shifting right and left all day. We had some mirage and I called wind with the flags for the first two shooters, then it was all mirage for the rest of the day.
On Saturday, the south wind continued, but it was mainly from the right and would slow down or speed up. I thought I had it nailed on match #2 and even with a 6 (yes, a 6 at 9 o'clock,) I managed to eke out a 189-something. It was funny because I didn't see anything that would have caused the 6, and I held at the same place and continued with 10, X, 10 to finish the first half.
While I was scoring for a shooter, I noticed the strangest sight I have ever seen on the line. Picture this; the shooter, two positions to my right fires and the smoke from his barrel is going from my right to left at a good clip. Right then the shooter to my left sends his jacketed lead cylinder downrange and his barrel smoke goes from left to right, immediately in front of me. I'm watching smoke going right to left about 10 yards away from me and another puff of smoke going left to right about 5 yards in front. I had to reach down to the ground to pick my jaw up.
By the third match, my earlier indicators were no longer valid and at that point, I could not find anything that worked for me, but I had the 10-ring worried because I had it surrounded; if the goal was to shoot only 9s, I would have had a great score.
On Sunday morning, the wind had changed drastically and was now coming into our faces. It was pretty steady for a change, but it was very brisk. I dropped some shots and just didn't seem to get a solid, dependable read on things. Score was ok, but I was not gaining ground.
On the final match, the wind had increased some but I had noticed that the flags were speaking to me in a manner that I could, if not understand fully, at least I was getting the gist of what they were saying. I started shooting and when I declared for record, my first shot was a 9. Way to start things off on your final string. Undaunted and with nothing to lose at this late stage, I kept up the shooting and whereas the day before I was hearing a litany of "9, so and so on," this time around it was "10, so and so on," punctuated by the odd "X, so and so on." I was spending most of my time on my spotting scope, figuring a hold, and then transitioning to my riflescope and shooting quickly on that hold. As soon as the shot was gone and the bolt was opened, I would be back on my spotting scope, looking at my indicators.
I collected the widest selection of 10s ever. I had some of the fattest 10s you've ever seen. I only got 4 Xs, and I did drop another point around shot 13, it dribbled out the bottom at 6 o'clock. I had noticed that I was dropping and was already favoring high and had resolved to add a click on the scope after that shot. Shoulda, coulda, woulda. I added the click and continued on and finished with a 198-4.
That's when all the questions came.
After the earlier comments on this thread, I was afraid to answer truthfully, lest I be called a bad wind reader or worse. But truth be known, once I started my string, my spotting scope was focused on the line and I was watching the targets on either side of mine. On my left, I had the F-Openers and on my right I had the F-TR shooters. I was on relay two of four so the shooters were quite dependable in their marksmanship. I was not focused on any one particular target, I was just getting a complete picture. When I was transitioning to my riflescope, I also got an idea of what the flags were telling me, and as long as they were mumbling the same story, I just chased my spotter in the 10-ring. As soon as the shot was gone, check the flags and get on the spotting scope. Every once in a while I would hold up, or get on the riflescope, not fire and get back to the spotting scope. Then go back on shoot.
I got some 10s that were morbidly obese, I am here to tell you, but they were 10s and I took them.
So yes, call me a bad wind reader. Tell me I should be drummed out of the “good wind reader fraternity; the ones who never look at other targets.” I don’t care. My story is like the NSA’s story; I was not looking at someone else’s specific target, I was looking at the metadata, the trend in spotters. I banged out my 20 for record pretty quickly, got up and cursed my stupidity at dropping that 9 out the bottom and put away my gear for the day. I did win match #5, the only bright spot for me, in an otherwise dismal individual performance.
Relating this back to the subject at hand, this would have been more difficult with E-targets. Once I got going and figured things out, I guess I could have eschewed the use of the spotting scope and just looked at the tablet. But my Kowa gives me a much better overall picture of the target line and it also showed me the movement of the long grass at the top of the impact berm, the trees beyond and the grass on the 600 yards firing line. All in one picture and that can’t be done with E-targets. I would have needed to look at an extra item and integrate what I was seeing there with what I was seeing in the spotting scope and what the flags were telling me. That would have slowed me down and is more prone to errors.
Last edited:
Jay Christopherson
Not An Admin
On the contrary, IMO, watching other targets makes you an experienced shooter. I think that if you are not aware of what's going on around you, then you are doing it wrong. Like you say, I'm not looking at specific targets, I'm looking at the metadata. I find it harder to do with e-targets because the feedback cycle is different.
If anyone wants to call me out for using all of the available information on the firing line, then have at it.
Aw come on Bob, you're gonna give me a complex! It's tough to be precise on those "4 and 1/24th left" calls. ;-)
Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
The reality is, your shooting to become better at f-class. If that means looking at other targets or chasing the spotter so be it. I dont think anyone shoots f-class to become a better hunter in the field. Some of what you do will only apply in f-class it doesnt have to apply to reading wind in the field.
Last edited:
Keith Glasscock
Gold $$ Contributor
Yes, that is precisely what is going on. I use wind estimating techniques that are specific to this sport and no other.
Turbulent Turtle
F-TR competitor
The reality is, your shooting to become better at f-class. If that means looking at other targets or chasing the spotter so be it. I dont think anyone shoots f-class to become a better hunter in the field. Some of what you do will only apply in f-class it doesnt have to apply to reading wind in the field. I will be attending the Nats this year and the E targets are a big reason for me, I HATE pit duty
You do what you need to do in order to score well. Gather all the data, interpret it properly and use it to your advantage.
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
The reality is, your shooting to become better at f-class. If that means looking at other targets or chasing the spotter so be it. I dont think anyone shoots f-class to become a better hunter in the field. Some of what you do will only apply in f-class it doesnt have to apply to reading wind in the field. I will be attending the Nats this year and the E targets are a big reason for me, I HATE pit duty
Then we will be canceling each other out, because it's one of the factors in my decision process. While I wouldn't go to the range just to pull targets, I really don't mind it, but I'm still not ready to pay to play on the e-systems. At least for now, I'm planning for Canada x2 this yr and Raton in '18.
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.