How Good Is The Average PD Sniper?
- Thread starter rckendall
- Start date
Jason Pagan is another source that could lend to the discussion. Carl "Monster" Kovalchik has extensive experience in training and practice as a retired counter sniper with the Secret Service having protected at least three former Presidents I am aware of and having trained some of our countries finest military Special Forces snipers.
As Ben and others have observed to give a general answer to a very broad open ended question is almost futile. All Law Enforcement trains according to resources and support from the top which as we all know is different from not only department to department but local, state and national origin.
I always measured our effectiveness not in KIA's during a SWAT engagement, but rather in how many ended w/o having to take a life. Having said that our goal was to train diligently and frequently to ensure that if necessary to take action a quick resolution could be achieved minimizing casualties to civilians and police members at all cost.
Participating in organized SWAT competitions as well as local IDPA and Highpower mid/long range matches were fully supported to hone skills and place members under time constraints to replicate pressure situations.
As we all know the more we compete the better we become in raising our skills.
The short answer is: Not very good. I have met a few and shot with a few others. Most are good marksmen, as well as being good officers, but not exceptional shooters. When it comes to pure shooting ability and knowledge they are not trained thoroughly. Most departments don't train much, or send their sniper's out for advanced training. Usually they qualify for the job and are required to shoot very little to stay qualified. They would most likely never need the ability or equipment to make super difficult shots for their job. It does disappoint me that they are not given more training and better equipment. There are however exceptions. Some police swat snipers train and compete at very high levels and are excellent shooters, but on average I would say most are not. If I was ever in danger, I would rather have one of the guys I compete with take that shot. I sincerely hope I don't come off sounding like a jerk. Today I met and hung out with swat sniper at the range, kinda the only reason I even chimed in on this thread.
My comment is: why do you care? The only LEO "sniper" I know, and long since retired, was a top-notch shooter, and regularly won High Master and overall at our regional High Power matches in "match rifle" category. And traveled the world competing, and regularly won matches in the so-called Police Olympics internationally. I would trust him with my life, and my family's, whether or not it was related to some shoot-or-don't criminal/hostage situation.
He was not "average", and I'd be willing to be that most police officers in the SWAT/sniper role are not either.
OTOH, I would no more trust the "average" police office in a shooting situation, whether handgun/rifle/shotgun than I would the "average" driver to borrow my car.
The last part is sad but true..
It's much like the common law enforcement officer. Many do not even own personal firearms other than there duty guns. They just do not have an interest in shooting other than qualifying for there career job as an officer. Many are not that great of a shot and qualifying is fairly easy.
I'll chime in on this. Im an F-Open shooter and a police officer, swat team member but not a sniper. Two close friends of mine are snipers on our team. Both of them are both very competent shooters and guys I trust my life with. But like Wes said, our effectiveness is not measured in the same way a military sniper is. Most of what our guys do is information gathering, relaying us up to date information as to what is happening on scene. While they train a ton for the shooting aspect of there job, they also train hard for information gathering. A former partner of mine spent nearly twenty years on the team and never fired a shot. A SWAT team's goal is not to go in and inflict as much damage as possible, but to avoid it as much as possible. As others have said, there are officers on our department who don't shoot as much as others. One thing that needs to be considered is shooting at paper or steel is by no means an accurate measure of someone's real world effectiveness. On a two way range, things change. You can stack rounds on top of each other all day long but when either a) bullets are flying at you, or b) someone's life is at risk, it's something you can't train for. There is no amount of induced stress that comes close to what it's really like.
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Military sniper and law enforcement sharpshooter are two worlds apart. One must evaluate and conquer a plethora of environmental conditions, while blending in and virtually eliminating numerous threats. The other being there ONLY if needed in that low percentage situation and while intense and stress oriented their mission may not have to be carried out in most cases. Sniper is NOT what law enforcement response teams call there sharpshooters. Marksman/sharpshooter is correct language.
Thank you everyone for the replies. As I stated in my first post, I am just curious about the training a LEO might get, in order for me to continue the conversation with this particular fellow. Communication is both talking and listening, and I have listened to his dialog and wanted to know more. I couldn't imagine a local department being able to train on the level that the military might. But, I had not even thought about how the urban environment plays into the scenario, let alone the legal aspects that might be part of it.
So, again I say thanks for all the input. I did get quite a bit of information from it all.
Richard
So, again I say thanks for all the input. I did get quite a bit of information from it all.
Richard
The LE rifleman does work from 80 yards in...if at all. Most big departments would rather wait the situation out to tire the bad guy out and talk him to confusion and distraction. They don't want to shoot even 1 round. Just to scared of the legal repercussions. You can only count on local support and backing. It matters only how LE looks on the 10 o'clock news, not weather they upheld the law to the best of their ability. Portland Oregon, prime example... it seems the only law they follow is the law of popular opinion. Really hard on the rank and file who do the best to serve and protect, and uphold the law only to be thrown to the wolves of the media and popular opinion. The city will make sure you never work again, even though a Grand Jury found you followed all the rules. Really a sad thing to see, and Portland is not the only one...sad to say.
CaptainMal
Silver $$ Contributor
Watched two local PD's practice at Manatee a few times. Shot next to some that were practicing at 200 and 300 yards.
They were OK from what I could see. OK is not IBS quality but certainly reasonable for the equipment used.
They were OK from what I could see. OK is not IBS quality but certainly reasonable for the equipment used.
I see 2 local police dept. sniper teams practice at my clubs range now and then. They have good equip. and Nice US optics, they take their job seriously and are very good shots, They told me they would never be asked to take a shot over 100yds, their concern was mostly 1st cold bore shot POI. They are required to shoot more hours at the range per month than I would have thought. They say they would rather be at the range shooting, then be at their other duties. These guys I know are well trained and nice fellas. They even gave up the 100yd line, to shoot with me on the 300yd berm just for a change of pace.
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Shynloco
You can lead a horse to water, but ........
AMEN! Having been honored to hold the "Sharpshooter" position back at my agency in the early 80's, we were trained by the FBI Blue Light Sniper Team and the US Marine Corp Sniper Team at Camp Pendleton, CA. Our training was focused around taking a shot from 80 yds to 120 yards max. The instructors provided the gambit of concerns for both an urban environment (background, surroundings, situational) rather than a free field of fire such as in combat. Every shot must be accounted for and a green light only applied to any target we were assigned to "neutralize." Our practice ammo was handloaded, but we also primarily zeroed for factory Federal Gold Match 168 gr HPBT for actual call out situations. We worked in two man teams, one spotter one shooter unless we had multiple targets at the same situation in which we each focused on a specific target, yet communicated with one another should there be a sudden change in the situation. And yes we carried both a Sniper Rifle (mine was a Ruger M77V that had been worked) as well as an Armalite 180 should there be a need for close distance rapid fire cover, such as cover fire for the necessary removal of injured personnel such as in the Hollywood Shoot Out where the bad guys worn body armor. Bottom line, we practiced a great deal because we wanted to be the best we could be. Shooting at a paper target is one thing. Shooting through a median such as a window is another and you better know what your shot will do because hitting a victim or unintended person is simply unacceptable. And you also better know what that median requires (caliber wise) to penetrate, because pissing off a suspect or group of bad guys isn't helpful to the well being of hostages. That's why we also practiced with a .338 Remington Bolt gun for such glass as window store fronts and other comparable glass or wooden doors. Being prepared for any contingency was also something we practiced for and being competent to take the shot is something that takes time and practice. Whether I could outshoot or be outshot wasn't our goal. Doing the job and doing it right is the only thing that mattered. That included both accuracy, discipline (to take the shot or not to shoot) and team work. And of course, at the end of the day, go home to your family.
Alex
Our PD SWAT Teams used to be one shot, one perp out of business. At that time, they had 700 heavy barrel rifles, 22-250's and 308's and a Dillon 550 in the basement. Four guys, and they each wore out a barrel a year. Then we got a PC mayor, and the Dillon went bye-bye; along with the funding for the sniper competitions in the western half of the US. If they could see you, you were in mortal danger. These days, not as good.
First off police don't have snipers they have counter-snipers. Most aren't very good but the where I used to work they were good. Each man's rifle was custom made for him or her. They had to be 100% @600 yds and practiced out to 1000yds . They always worked in teams off 2, shooter and spotter. I don't know what there average would be on pdogs.
Definitely a true statement. Having spent over 10 years in the firearms business in the Los Angeles area I dealt with more than my share of Police Officers. More often than not the comments were in the range of “I didn’t become a cop to shoot a gun, I have a degree in criminal justice and just want to make detective or some other position”. While I appreciate their desire to focus on the justice side, carrying a sidearm and using it to save a life matters. During the same time we had a store inside a gun range which was the local qualification range for many departments and would regularly watch these same guys and countless others barely qualify at 15 FEET on a full size b-27 target. I’m sure many if not most were great cops and good people who wanted to serve their communities faithfully but it always gave the shivers to see their actual gun skills. A fraction of these guys would even come up to me and ask how to take their 92fs apart. It was always the minority of police officers who actually enjoyed the shooting sports and took the time to improve. The rest seemed to do the bare minimum just as part of the job. This was pre-2000s but I’m guesssing the mentality and skills haven’t improved all that much based on what I hear and see.
243Lapua
Silver $$ Contributor
LOL. I have seen that too. Every year the local public range will host a Law Enforcement Day and they send what they consider there top picks. And yes we send them home with their tails between their legs. And also they ask us for help and tip in ways to improve their shooting skills, which we greatly do to help them out in any ways.
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I met one at the range. He was from a local small city PD. He had a 308 Remington factory rifle. His ammo was Hornady TAP 168 grain factory. He was doing Ok, groups about an inch which is probably about what the rifle/ammo is capable of consistently. He said he practiced more than most members of the team, not necessarily because he had to, but that he wanted to be able to shoot accurately when he had to. You have to remember that liabilities and legalities preclude custom rifles and reloaded ammo in most departments. So they have what they have. He also said their goal is to not take “the shot”.
Much has been discussed on the police marksman, sharpshooter, snipers ability to shoot accurately and indeed it is necessary. If used correctly a team (2 men) can gather a wealth if intelligence for command personnel to use. How many bad guys? Clothing, who is the leader, how many hostages? What kind and how many weapons just to name a few.
I find this type of training lacking (intelligence gathering) shooting, like language, is an acquired skill. Don’t use it you lose it. Intelligence gathering for LE is as important as it is for our military brothers. This is where LE fails in its training. Few PD’s have the time, money and resources for this training. A police sniper, marksman whatever considers it a successful call out if NO shots are fired.
I find this type of training lacking (intelligence gathering) shooting, like language, is an acquired skill. Don’t use it you lose it. Intelligence gathering for LE is as important as it is for our military brothers. This is where LE fails in its training. Few PD’s have the time, money and resources for this training. A police sniper, marksman whatever considers it a successful call out if NO shots are fired.
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