How do BR shooters get away with it?

[Nowhere Man]

We're told bench rest shooters know everything there is to know about reloading. They bring a trailer full of gear with them. They load 5 rounds at a time. After shooting those 5 rounds they go back to their machine shop on wheels and reload those 5 cases and fire them again.

How do they get away with not annealing after each firing? Do they trim/chamfer/debur after each firing? Do they clean with steel pins in an overnight bath of secret solutions?

If not, why do we?

 

[Thud]

Because they don't drink the hyped up bath water.

 

[Mikemci]

They could easily anneal in their "machine shop on wheels". Maybe they do?

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Annealing is not necessary or even desirable in some cases. Some powders like a lot of neck tension and annealing will usually open your groups with those powders. With sharp shoulder angles cases dont grow, so they dont require trimming. Cleaning your cases most likely is hurting your groups if you are disturbing the carbon layer inside the neck. Its a perfect natural neck lube.

We as shooters would be better off if we read a little less and tested a little more.

 

[LHSmith]

The dies used produce a case that perfectly matches their chamber .......hence minimal work hardening....and the cases are usually retired at the end of the match. Short Range BR- they go to the line with 15 cases on average 5 for record rounds, the rest for foulers and sighters. Also, some come to the match pre-loaded, as is often the case in score shooting. No need to trim/chamfer after one agg, or do anymore cleaning than just wipe case with a rag and brush the neck ID with a nylon brush.

 

[alphapygmy]

Annealing is not necessary or even desirable in some cases. Some powders like a lot of neck tension and annealing will usually open your groups with those powders.

Alex, can you expand on this? Thanks

 

[Alex Wheeler]

N133 likes a lot of neck tension in the ppc. Some guys are using upwards of .005". Annealing softens the brass, makes it yield sooner, and basically lowers the maximum amount grip it can put on a bullet. In those situations annealing will open your groups, even if the tension is more consistent from case to case. H4895 in the dasher is the same way.

 

[Tim s]

Lot's of guys have stated a lot of pertinent information here, but to get to the heart of your question, a custom tight chamber firing a nicely fireformed/fitted case means that brass, particularly below the neck/shoulder junction, moves very little, idealy between .001"-.002" at the shoulder and no more at the cases base.
This is far less than typical chamberings and aided by the fact that these are short, straight cases.
Also since working pressures of popular BR chamberings, such as the PPC, are pushing well into the 60,000 PSI plus area, brass flow in the neck is non existant, requiring rare neck trimming.

 

[dkhunt14]

Alex, can you expand on this? Thanks

They run really thin necks. Most use a .262 chamber. So they turn to .008 neck wall. Not a lot of brass there to hold or get hard. Usually they will go tighter on neck bushings as the brass hardens. Matt

 

[LHSmith]

They run really thin necks. Most use a .262 chamber. So they turn to .008 neck wall. Not a lot of brass there to hold or get hard. Usually they will go tighter on neck bushings as the brass hardens. Matt

True. Carbide bushings are used and are available in 0.0005" increments making their "system" workable.

 

[savagedasher]

For years I never annealed really their is no reason to think it makes a case shoot better.
BR shooter don't work the brass that much.
Like Alex said too many read too much and don't test . Larry

 

[dcali]

Food for thought: What is more consistent - a batch of cases that's been repeatedly work hardened, or one you just ran through an annealing machine? How do you know how consistently you are annealing?

The idea that annealing is an automatic benefit is flawed. It's good for case life if you run sloppy chambers (I don't do that). It's good for forming wildcats (not my thing). The rest is mostly conjecture. The one time I've seen someone do some careful meaningful testing (Litz's latest book) showed it was mildly harmful to velocity variation. The engineering literature and data is sparse, but what is out there casts a lot of doubt on our ability to know exactly what we're doing with the machines on the market.

I personally put it in the "problems I don't have" bucket. I have too little time to reload as it is.

 

[tightneck]

We're told bench rest shooters know everything there is to know about reloading. They bring a trailer full of gear with them. They load 5 rounds at a time. After shooting those 5 rounds they go back to their machine shop on wheels and reload those 5 cases and fire them again.

How do they get away with not annealing after each firing? Do they trim/chamfer/debur after each firing? Do they clean with steel pins in an overnight bath of secret solutions?

If not, why do we?

First, make no assumptions about any group as a whole. I saw someone post here recently that all short range BR shooters use flatbase bullets. I mistakenly stated recently that all LR benchresters preload, wrong. Most do not use .262 necks as stated here, times, they are a changing. Some BR shooters do anneal after every shot. Some trim, chamfer, clean the inside of the necks, after every shot, some don't. Many BR shooters clean their barrel after each target, whether they shoot 6 shots or 15. I had a 30 BR barrel once that I cleaned once every 500 rounds or so, whether it needed it or not. I rarely shoot more than 8 shots on any given target, unless I'm lost and testing different loads. I know some shooters that start shooting shortly after "commence fire", and don't stop until "cease fire". One thing that is sure, consistently successful BR shooters have a system, their system. I doubt that differs much from high power or F class shooters.

 

[dmoran]

The smallest group I've ever shot at a 1000-BR match was a 2.553" (LT-Gun) with brass on its 19th-cycle, never annealed, (0.0095" neck walls). Those same 5 cases on there 18th-cycle shot a 3.261" group at a previous match. On there 17th-cycle they went slightly over 2" while testing at home.

The 2nd smallest group I've ever shot at a 1000-BR match was a 2.676" with brass "Annealed +2-cycles", and was its 7th life-time cycle, only annealed (Amp) the one time.

As Alex stated: "testing" is what proves out to our own scenario's. Good to hear what works for others, but often is not what ends up working for me.

My 2-Cents
Donovan

 

[LHSmith]

Food for thought: What is more consistent - a batch of cases that's been repeatedly work hardened, or one you just ran through an annealing machine? How do you know how consistently you are annealing?

Results on target provide the answer. But you must have a rifle/optic/rest system and proven loads you can trust to see the difference. FWIW, I believe most score shooters anneal their 30 BR brass because they want to be competitive.

 

[Ron Blain]

We're told bench rest shooters know everything there is to know about reloading. They bring a trailer full of gear with them. They load 5 rounds at a time. After shooting those 5 rounds they go back to their machine shop on wheels and reload those 5 cases and fire them again.

How do they get away with not annealing after each firing? Do they trim/chamfer/debur after each firing? Do they clean with steel pins in an overnight bath of secret solutions?

If not, why do we?

Well as someone mentioned I would not lump all bench rest shooters together. I live in the Cleveland, Ohio suburbs. My range of choice is Keblys Range they manufacture some fine bench rest rifles, many based on the Stole Action. While I am not a bench rest type I did build myself a 6mm PPC and listen to the serious bench rest shooters. These are your short range BR people shooting 100 and 200 yards. The big draw every year is the annual super shoot which as a member of the range I like looking around at and talking with the shooters. While the high end guys roll in with half million dollar RVs their entry fee buys some table space in one of the large barns. I have never seen a shooter roll in with a machine shop in tow. They show up with nice well designed portable loading stations and I never saw anyone annealing necks on site. You will see custom dies in custom presses. These are generaqlly dies which were cut from the same reamer that cut their chambers. Never saw a powder scale, they all pretty much use the Harrel Powder Throws and work strictly from throwing volume. The entry fee includes some card table space, maybe 5 linear feet of bench space. I took a few phone pictures on the line for 2016:

On average they run 5 shots, wet the bore and run several cotton patches through the bores on a tight jag usually on a Dewey or similar rod. The super shoot is a blast as you meet people and plenty of venders hawking their wares as well as some sweet rifles for sale. Hell, anyone planning the super shoot let me know and I'll meet you out there, You will find that much of the myth is unfounded but there is a hell of a lot of fun and learning to be had and just some real nice people to talk to.

Ron

 

[1shot]

I'm not a BR shooter, but compete with a sling and jacket. However the same principles still apply. The proof is always on the paper. When my vertical is less that the previous load during testing and there are more X's during the match, then this load is working.
Also, a load that shows promise at short range, doesn't necessarily make it good for a 20 shot match with sighters. I always shoot a club match with a given combination before I call it GTG. I've been bitten a couple of times with a load that shoots well and drops no points for the the first 10-12 rounds, then drops 4-5 in the remainder of the string.
I hope this helps,

Lloyd

 

[Shynloco]

We're told bench rest shooters know everything there is to know about reloading.....

That's a falsehood! But what sets many Benchrest shooter apart from others is the "knowledge" they have about their rifles and their loads, as displayed by the previous posts above. I shoot Benchrest also and turn to these gents because whenever I have a problem, chances are excellent they've seen the problem before and can SUGGEST possible "fix-its". Other disciplines also have their own experts in what they shoot and gets them the best score downrange, which is proof they know what the hell they are talking about. And that confirmation is what shows their knowledge (and sets them apart) in each particular situation (discipline), not some cheap shot innuendo by somebody who thinks he knows it all!

Alex

 

[DOGCAPPER]

Some of the more persistent annealers I know screw up more brass than they improve.

 

[LHSmith]

Well as someone mentioned I would not lump all bench rest shooters together. I live in the Cleveland, Ohio suburbs. My range of choice is Keblys Range they manufacture some fine bench rest rifles, many based on the Stole Action. While I am not a bench rest type I did build myself a 6mm PPC and listen to the serious bench rest shooters. These are your short range BR people shooting 100 and 200 yards. The big draw every year is the annual super shoot which as a member of the range I like looking around at and talking with the shooters. While the high end guys roll in with half million dollar RVs their entry fee buys some table space in one of the large barns. I have never seen a shooter roll in with a machine shop in tow. They show up with nice well designed portable loading stations and I never saw anyone annealing necks on site. You will see custom dies in custom presses. These are generaqlly dies which were cut from the same reamer that cut their chambers. Never saw a powder scale, they all pretty much use the Harrel Powder Throws and work strictly from throwing volume. The entry fee includes some card table space, maybe 5 linear feet of bench space. I took a few phone pictures on the line for 2016:

On average they run 5 shots, wet the bore and run several cotton patches through the bores on a tight jag usually on a Dewey or similar rod. The super shoot is a blast as you meet people and plenty of venders hawking their wares as well as some sweet rifles for sale. Hell, anyone planning the super shoot let me know and I'll meet you out there, You will find that much of the myth is unfounded but there is a hell of a lot of fun and learning to be had and just some real nice people to talk to.

Ron

Good informative post. However, to counter a long running "myth" the reloading dies are typically closely matched to the rifles chamber. A die cut from the same reamer as the barrel chamber simply will not work.