How clean is “Clean” for a barrel?

[Jeff A]

I personally like Bore Tech's C4 carbon remover w/ a bronze brush..........
/QUOTE]
The instructions for C4 specifically state that you should use a tight fitting nylon brush when using C4. Bronze brushing with Bore-Tech Eliminator is OK. I don't know why they want a nylon brush with the C4. I always worry about what I don't know!

 

[AckleymanII]

Lemee see .....shot 30 rounds of load development on Thursday , 40 rounds of "confirmation" for final load choice on Saturday , and a 3 x 60 round match + sighters , ( 70 in total ) on Sunday , and cleaned on Monday . I think most F-class shooters would tell you that's about avg. , or less than average for a F barrel . I shoot with guys / gals who shoot 250 - 400 rounds before cleaning , or only when groups start to open up . Bullet , powder , barrel , and load all come into play . As others have said , let the target tell you . Borescopes are a necessary piece of equipment , but can be easily mis-interpreted .

When your buddies do get around to cleaning, they have a hell of a job on their hands. That cooked on carbon does not turn loose easy. I have bought F class barrels that have quit shooting, they were carbon fouled from end to end, solid black. It was an unbelievable job to get them clean. When I did get the carbon out, I cut the threads off, bored out the balance of the chamber up to the -shoulder, re=chambered, they shot bug holes each and every one of them.

In my own experience, R#15 is horrible to get out if you put 300 rounds on a barrel with 155's.

 

[K22]

Talk to the Bore Tech Rep - they are very helpful. I was told that you can use a bronze brush with C4. However since C4 has some copper removing capability it will react with a bronze brush. If you patch out with 3-4 patches saturated with C4 after brushing per their instructions you'll remove the residuals from the brush. Also, after use, I soak the bronze brush in mineral spirits which halts the reaction with C4 thus preserving the brush.

They reason they specify a nylon brush is because the believe that a bronze brush is not necessary. Their nylon brushes are slightly over sized and provide a fair amount of mechanical action.

The only reason I use a bronze brush which is a personal preference is for the additional mechanical action of the stiffer brush. Perhaps it indeed is not necessary, I don't know. I only know that it's the method I've used for over 50 years now and it seems to do a good job of removing carbon.

 

[D-4297]

@ackleyman ll : Think you may have mis-understood what I was trying to convey to the OP . Sometimes , you just don't have the time , between matches to do a full cleaning , or even a partial cleaning . When I see my group start to open , it's cleaning time , but I subscribe to the theory , "If it ain't broke , STOP trying to fix it "! Clean as needed , not just because you shot ten or twenty , or even thirty rounds . Over-cleaning is just as detrimental to a barrel . I can assure you that my rifles get cleaned extremely good , when they get cleaned . And I don't have no "stinkin" carbon build-up in the neck area , either . Who uses RL-15 to shoot in F-TR ? Varget & the 4064 and 4895 powders are the common usage "F" powders , to my knowledge .

 

[paulT]

I have tried some of the more popular cleaning liquids and have concluded that none of them clean all, or very much, of the residue out of your barrel without using a brass brush.

Iosso, Butches, Hoppes, Boretech Eliminator - they all leave copper and some carbon in your barrel, even after applying them and letting them sit for 15 minutes or longer.

A good bore brush and persistent scrubbing will remove the copper. But a pass or two with the brush, even after letting the cleaner sit for a while, will not remove all of the residue. You can see this with a borescope if you bother to look.

Some of the carbon residue down the barrel (not just at the throat) is harder than the powder residue that comes out easily after you fire a few rounds. The patch will come back clean, but if you let the barrel soak for a while in your favorite cleaner after getting a clean patch, the next patch you run through will have significant carbon residue on it.

This is my experience after testing on two barrels for the last week or so. I have concluded that clean barrel is absolutely a subjective term that we use to notate when our barrel is clean enough to group good. In reality, the barrel may not be clean at all, i.e. copper free and carbon free. And, I am in search of the best brushes to use as I feel that they are a must.

Have I missed something?

I find the only way to remove All Copper fouling on both the barrel Lands & Grooves after using a few patches of bore cleaner to remove fouling and lube the bore is to then wrap a patch around a wore or undersized nylon brush applying a small amount of jb bore compound 5 to 10 strokes usualy removes the leftover carbon/copper fouling in both the lands and grooves and reduces the amount of bore scrubbing with regular bore cleaners without reducing barrell life.

 

[Bottom Fodder]

I guess I’m lucky my barrel shoots better dirty then it does clean‍

 

[mikecr]

By then, I am sure the barrels will be shot out and I will have to start over again.

Your original consideration of this problem is actually segue to our common 'shot out' condition.
That is, the end of accurate barrel life, which is not a wear situation, but a surface lifting to constriction situation.

The only way I can think of to affect what impinges into the grain of our steel, eventually lifting it, is powerful ultrasonic and/or steam cleaning. This could get you back to hard steel at better than visible levels.
If employed frequently, then erosion from this method (itself) might even be mitigated.
That's never going to be a condition that shoots well though. You'll need to pre-foul the surface again.
But I don't see that as a problem,, you can dry pre-foul on the reloading bench.

I've never cleaned a bore with these methods myself. Just kickin out ideas on this.
Instead, I've used Speedy's cleaning method for a long time, to white metal clean, as I can 'see' with a bore scope, followed by dry pre-fouling with WS2. With this, I get normal accurate barrel life. It's very consistent.

As far as copper fouling; I'm sure it is opposite of good for ANY barrel.
That a gun will shoot as good as it will -without copper.
You really should remove at least that much.

 

[wildcat3d]

Never been to a match. Are you saying that most of the 100-300 us br guys use boresnakes on their ppcs at matches?

I shoot short Range BR 100-200 and have never seen anyone use a bore snake in 10 years of watching other shooters during competition..

 

[ebb]

I hear people talking and they use the phrase " very true ". No, it is not, its either true or it is not true, there are no shades of true. Just as in cleaning a rifle. If it has zero carbon and zero copper, it is clean. I you want a slight amount of fouling in it because you don't want to have to shoot some fowlers to get it to a point that it is consistent, that is your choice. But it is not clean. every time I hear someone say "very true' I think used car salesman. As far as a bore snake is concerned, its not clean if you drug a bore snake through it 50 times. But whats worse is dragging that rag infused with carbon fowling like sandpaper up and down the bore. You will never know it its clean or not till you use a borescope. I was invited to see if me 6.5-284 was clean and i knew this was coming and I cleaned on it all afternoon. Took it to the guys house the next day and he shows me carbon fowling in the corners of the lands.

 

[JEFFPPC]

I have been shooting br matches for close 30 years. Never saw a bore snake. Speaking of the pros, I have shot with quite a few of them, never saw a bore snake. Guess I need to shoot with the real benchrest guys. LMAO.

 

[Bottom Fodder]

I hear people talking and they use the phrase " very true ". No, it is not, its either true or it is not true, there are no shades of true. Just as in cleaning a rifle. If it has zero carbon and zero copper, it is clean. I you want a slight amount of fouling in it because you don't want to have to shoot some fowlers to get it to a point that it is consistent, that is your choice. But it is not clean. every time I hear someone say "very true' I think used car salesman. As far as a bore snake is concerned, its not clean if you drug a bore snake through it 50 times. But whats worse is dragging that rag infused with carbon fowling like sandpaper up and down the bore. You will never know it its clean or not till you use a borescope. I was invited to see if me 6.5-284 was clean and i knew this was coming and I cleaned on it all afternoon. Took it to the guys house the next day and he shows me carbon fowling in the corners of the lands.

Thank you. Very well stated! Personally I think the target tell me more of what I need to know than a bore scope, unlike a car that I’m cleaning to sell I’m cleaning my barrel to make it shoot accurate and consistent and to me slick and shiny don’t shoot as well. just my $0.02

 

[JFrank]

Does a barrel have to be cleaned down to bare metal to shoot small ?

 

[Fuj]

Best way to ruin an accurate crown, is by using a bore snake
without a smaller bore diameter muzzle cap.

 

[JFrank]

Best way to ruin an accurate crown, is by using a bore snake
without a smaller bore diameter muzzle cap.

Why’s is that ? Doesn’t a bore snake have a bronze type brush poking out ?

 

[Fuj]

Coming out straight is the problem. If you pull it cockeyed over
a nice sharp edge, you'll abrade it, and especially with a load
carbon.

 

[JFrank]

I don’t follow how carbon or bronze in a rope can damage steel.
not trying to be a smart ass just trying to understand

 

[ebb]

It hasn't escaped me that some times a really clean barrel does not shoot as well as a semi clean barrel, and not as consistently. But all that said my ancient 6PPC always shoots its best when absolutely clean.

 

[David Milisock]

I have tried some of the more popular cleaning liquids and have concluded that none of them clean all, or very much, of the residue out of your barrel without using a brass brush.

Iosso, Butches, Hoppes, Boretech Eliminator - they all leave copper and some carbon in your barrel, even after applying them and letting them sit for 15 minutes or longer.

A good bore brush and persistent scrubbing will remove the copper. But a pass or two with the brush, even after letting the cleaner sit for a while, will not remove all of the residue. You can see this with a borescope if you bother to look.

Some of the carbon residue down the barrel (not just at the throat) is harder than the powder residue that comes out easily after you fire a few rounds. The patch will come back clean, but if you let the barrel soak for a while in your favorite cleaner after getting a clean patch, the next patch you run through will have significant carbon residue on it.

This is my experience after testing on two barrels for the last week or so. I have concluded that clean barrel is absolutely a subjective term that we use to notate when our barrel is clean enough to group good. In reality, the barrel may not be clean at all, i.e. copper free and carbon free. And, I am in search of the best brushes to use as I feel that they are a must.

Have I missed something?

I think you're asking the wrong question, there's only one state of clean. The problem being can you achieve that without damaging the barrel?

The only relevant questions are how clean does the barrel need to be for optimum accuracy?
When clean can you shoot a long enough shot string for your task?
If not, does cleaning the bore more increase the accurate shot string count?
Can you develop a process to return your fouled bore to optimum accuracy without damaging the bore?
Are you damaging the bore with your cleaning process?