I noticed while chronographing some .308 loads with Varget behind a 168 g Nosler, that the hotter my loads got, the better the statistics looked. In fact, one of the loads with the best statistics is what I'd classify as too darned hot and had all the signs of over-pressure. I understand that loads that mostly fill the case are more accurate than those that are partially empty but I'm talking about ~2% (1 gn) between loads. Is this normal?
Hotter loads are better?
- Thread starter DRNewcomb
- Start date
Hot loads don't mean the case is full . I pick a powder that fills the case over100% for a reason Larry
When I say, "Hot load", I mean primer flat and firing pin indentation cratered; difficult primary extraction and/or off the upper limit in the published loading manual.
Varget can be all over the chart with speed dependin on the lot . Your correct with your finding. Larry
try a slower burning powder that still fills up your case... and still gives you the fps for desired accuracy.
Keith Glasscock
Gold $$ Contributor
Varget really likes being on the top end in my experience. If you find that your load is too hot, you might have to change powders.
Remember that the loading manual is just a starting point and that pressure signs are the real deal when determining if a load is of acceptable pressure or not.
Remember that the loading manual is just a starting point and that pressure signs are the real deal when determining if a load is of acceptable pressure or not.
This is essentially what I found. The ES & SD each dropped as I approached 46 gns but I've become concerned that this load is just too hot.
Yes 46 grains isn't showing pressure signs in my particular rifle but I know it's approaching max
In my experience, i have found that the ranges of "low" to "Max" in reloading manuals generally produce 2 "nodes" of accuracy. One in mid-range and one pushing or exceding "Max". Most of my competition loads come from the lower node. Accuracy is there, and usually there is enough difference from the higher node to save a little on recoil, powder cost, and barrel wear. I do have some guns where i choose the higher node, due to terminal ballistics, bullet performance, and long range performance. When i do this, i have to consider benefit vs cost. Is added velocity worth the additional recoil, powder cost, and shorter barrel life?
In my experience, hotter is not always better.
Steve.
In my experience, hotter is not always better.
Steve.
skiutah02
Silver $$ Contributor
^yep
I'll add wear and tear on shooter, rifle and brass to the list as well as avoiding problems at matches that I've travelled long distances to attend with large swings in temperature over the day. There is a fairly compelling reason to choose lower nodes oftentimes. Milking to last bit of fps from a load can be detrimental to scores beyond just the obvious sometimes. As someone once told me "it's not a race". Drew
I'll add wear and tear on shooter, rifle and brass to the list as well as avoiding problems at matches that I've travelled long distances to attend with large swings in temperature over the day. There is a fairly compelling reason to choose lower nodes oftentimes. Milking to last bit of fps from a load can be detrimental to scores beyond just the obvious sometimes. As someone once told me "it's not a race". Drew
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My view is that accuracy is dependent on getting the right velocity for the barrel to put you in the sweet spot. If that velocity happens to be at the upper end of the load range then yes a hot load can be accurate. However it is best to get that velocity with changing powder burn rate rather than going over pressure. VV N135 might be worth a try to see if you can get the same velocities without as much pressure. And of course another option is to go a bit lighter on the bullet weight...
I notice that Hodgdon says 46 grains is the max for Varget and 168 grain, so it seems a bit strange that you seeing signs of over pressure. I usually find Hodgdon's recommendations are fairly conservative.
I know you are taking about the .308 for the most part but it has been my experience that magnums love to run a little hot......maybe even a little hotter than they should. JMO
I am a newbie, just trying to learn. You said above all your statistic got better, is accuracy one of those statistics or are you talking just Es & SD. I have. 30 inch tube and shoot 42.6 grains of varget at 2725fps and it shoots extremely well. I keep hearing guys talk about the high nodes and shooting 2850 to 2950 with 168grainers. I have worked up to 44 grains 020 off and the groups double, What kind fps are you getting with extra 3.4 grains of powder and about how much did your groups shrink up? Thanks
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
I wouldn't base how "hot" a load is on reloading manual data, which tends to be pretty conservative, even at the upper end. Further, reloading manuals typically base their charge weights on loading to mag length, which may or may not be the case, depending on the application. Longer freebore and longer COAL can markedly reduce pressure at a given charge weight, so comparison of loads for chambers with long throats to mag-length loadings can be apples to oranges. Identifying pressure signs can be one way to estimate how "hot" a load is, but they can also often be subject to widely varying interpretation at the early/intermediate stages.
With proper load-specific inputs, Quickload is another approach that can be used to estimate pressure. In my hands, the pressure outputs given by Quickload have corresponded very well relative to SAAMI MAX pressure values and my observed brass life. As with everything, YMMV. I have also found that velocity (and by extension, pressure) tends to become rather erratic when approaching or exceeding MAX pressure. However, I generally wouldn't recommend using erratic velocity as an indicator for excessive pressure; by the time you see it, you may be well over MAX pressure.
If you don't own a copy of Quickload, it's far better (and safer) to start with published data from the manuals, working up incrementally. If you reach the high end of the range and still think there is a ways to go, you can always decide to increase further in very small and careful increments.
With proper load-specific inputs, Quickload is another approach that can be used to estimate pressure. In my hands, the pressure outputs given by Quickload have corresponded very well relative to SAAMI MAX pressure values and my observed brass life. As with everything, YMMV. I have also found that velocity (and by extension, pressure) tends to become rather erratic when approaching or exceeding MAX pressure. However, I generally wouldn't recommend using erratic velocity as an indicator for excessive pressure; by the time you see it, you may be well over MAX pressure.
If you don't own a copy of Quickload, it's far better (and safer) to start with published data from the manuals, working up incrementally. If you reach the high end of the range and still think there is a ways to go, you can always decide to increase further in very small and careful increments.
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May have something to do with my using LC77 Match brass.
308 brass very a lot in case capacity so watch your loading . Larry
There were issues with the setup that negated any attempt at accuracy comparisons. There were a number of people at the range and I didn't get the chronograph well positioned which threw off my shooting position, etc. My legs are still sore from hunching in a strange position to get the rifle lined up with the chronograph. Bottom line is that I ended up shooting just to get velocities.
You've not mentioned if you are FL or NS your cases.
FL sizing vs NS with the same case and load will display higher pressures when examining primers.
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