Hornady's tip melting findings

[Berger.Fan222]

I've shot thousands of ballistic tips, v-maxs, and blitzkings, and melting or not, I don't think the prairie dogs ( or me for that matter) knew the difference. Just wondering if this is a solution looking for a problem.

I guess it depends on whether or not a 7% decrease in BC (or increase in drag) is important for the kind of shooting you do. It probably doesn't matter much for shooting at ranges closer than 600 yards.

But if you've worked the pits in a 1000 yard F-Class match, you've probably seen shots that barely catch (or barely miss) the X ring or the 10 ring. A 7% decrease in BC may amount to a few dropped points or a few missed X's over the course of a 60 shot tournament.

Likewise, in really long range hunting, every bullet has a lower limit on its effective velocity. A decrease in BC not only increases wind drift, but also decreases the range at which the bullet will impact at a given velocity. Hunter's do well to know the maximum range to which their bullets will be effective and restrict their shots to those ranges.

 

[daniel brothers]

if the tips are melting...then why do I find some of these perfectly formed plastic tips inside of dead critters...?

 

[JarheadAZ]

Looking at the physics of the issue, I think it's a matter of the temperature increase being directly related to the loss of terminal energy. I.e Velocity loss is a direct product of friction, and that friction manifests itself as temperature increase.

Put simply, as energy bleeds off, that energy manifests itself as heat; some is imparted to the air, and the rest, by elimination, has to be imparted to the areas of the projectile that are the most significant generators of friction. I'm thinking he tip has to be high on that list, and that as flight duration increases, so does the magnitude of the temperature increase.

But in all of this, I'm less interested in the point where the tip deforms. I am more interested in the real, quantifiable effects this phenomenon imposes on drop/drift and dispersion.

In the end, I see this as less of an exploration of the melting process than I do of the pragmatic POI effects on the average shot.

Let us also consider the same effects being applied to a bronze tip bullet.

Greg

 

[Berger.Fan222]

if the tips are melting...then why do I find some of these perfectly formed plastic tips inside of dead critters...?

Me too.

But the evidence seems to support the notion that tips only melt in certain combinations of extended range and warm ambient temperatures.

When I considered the cases where I have discovered perfectly formed plastic tips, I realized that most cases were shorter ranges and cooler temperatures associated with most deer hunting. Most (maybe all) of the deer I've killed at longer ranges were with Bergers. The tip in the attached picture was recovered from a shot under 200 yards on a cold day.

I also think one would need to compare a recovered tip side by side with an unfired tip to determine with confidence whether or not there are subtle changes in shape related to deformation.

 

[garytex]

I called Hornady today and got the rule of thumb I was looking for. If the bullets G1 ballistic coefficient is less than .5 then the bullet can't stay fast enough long enough to melt the tip .

 

[Aaron]

Maybe we could take a quick poll and document for all readers how many bullet companies are using Doppler Radar to examine bullet fight dynamics at extreme long range? I know that Hornady didn't have a Radar when the A-max was developed. I suspect that most of our current "long range" bullets were not developed with the assistance of Radar data.

I think the bottom line is we can shoot and see. Does our field shooting match claimed B.C.s?

For me and our customers, the best news is that the new ELD-X bullets finally give us consistent terminal performance at close and extreme range. The BCs are high, and the accuracy is excellent, and you don't need to trim meplats to get the consistent vertical required for first shot kills over a 1000 yards.

Aaron Davidson
Gunwerks, LLC.

 

[JarheadAZ]

Actually, it seems to me that the better question here is why we have to put up with target/FMJBT's that perform poorly.

Maybe we're putting the plastic (or bismuth?) on the wrong end of the bullet.

..Or, trying molding the same tip in Bismuth instead of plastic can be an interesting proposition. Higher melt point than lead, bismuth is a pretty hard material. I've seen bullet cores hobby-molded from it. The stuff expands as it cools, and needs its own dedicated molds and melting apparatus.

Personally, I have doubts about using bismuth cores for commercial purposes, but as tips; that might be possible. The specific gravity is near identical to lead. Maybe sintering bismuth granules into cores, or using it with a polymer could make cores that work.

The current technology seems to be undergoing considerable upheaval right now.

Greg

 

[StevenDzupin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfDoQwIAaXg

Werner Mehel can take the necessary high speed videos. ;D

Shimadzu HPV-2 camera is the camera used.

Regards,

Steve

 

[jlow]

And look at the date - 2009....

 

[m500]

For those of you that have not seen it, Hornady has posted a page of FAQ for the new tips.

http://www.hornady.com/support/faqs/heat-shield-technology

 

[Ledd Slinger]

I'm wondering the same thing. I'm only doing a lot of assuming, but I guess its the same tip thats on the the A-maxs and probably the same tip that is on the V-max's. I wonder why the tip was melting on only this bullet. These new bullets aren't being shot out extreme velocities like a light V-max, and they aren't being shot out of a faster twist or higher velocity than the A-max's would in the same calibers that the new ELD's are.

Exactly. If its not a problem on Amax or Vmax, how the hell is it a problem on the ELD??? ...I smell a gimmick.

 

[JarheadAZ]

I think the answer is that we have finally determined whether or not there is such a thing as too high a BC.

The problem arises from frictional heating.

The longer/further the bullet cruises, the warmer it gets. Combining maximal BC with maximal velocity allows an uninterrupted trajectory to generate enough frictional heating that the hotter portions of the projectile exceed the melt point of the plastic tip.

I would first try duplicating the plastic tips in Bismuth.

Greg

 

[normmatzen]

I have been shooting long range bench rest only a few years so I am certainly no expert. I started shooting with 105 A-MAX and SMK's. I switched to Berger Hybrids as I started measuring bullets and had to sort the A-MAX and SMK and the Bergers were way more consistent.
Fast forward to a year or so ago when bullets became un-obtainium and I found plenty of A-MAX bullets. Then, I was shooting 6BRX at about 3000 fps and 284 WIN at about 2850 fps (180 Hybrids).

So, I bought some 162 gr A-MAX and low and behold, they shot as good as the Hybrids and at 2970 fps! 105gr for the 6BRX and 162 gr for the 284 WIN. And, they are CHEAP! Over the years I have learned to load with more care and precision and the difference in bullets has diminished and my meager mirage and wind skills are getting a slight bit better, so why would I return to the expensive Berger Hybrids? And, I'll bet the new Hornady ELD's are a lot more expensive than the A-MAX "old technology!"
That plus a certain gentleman shoots at our range often and he holds some world records for long range BR with 6mm A-MAX's!
For those who have forgotten, long range BR means 600yd and 1000 yd.
I don't want to accuse Hornady of anything, but the term "Marketing" comes to mind here!

 

[m500]

The ELD line has an MSRP only about 2$- 3$ higher per box than the A-max, but there is some marketing involved. Keep in mind that Hornady didn't set out to develop the ELD line. It is a by-product of the ELD-X line. The problems with the tips were discovered while developing the ELD-X line, which are new bullets from new dies. They then decided to implement the new tip material into their match bullets, calling it their ELD line. I believe these to be A-max bullets with the new tips using the existing A-max dies, hence the lower price compared to the ELD-X. It seems they elected to introduce these under a new name rather than make a running change on existing item numbers. That is a good decision on their part to eliminate confusion and give themselves a marketing opportunity. The A-max bullets corresponding to the 4 new ELD offerings look to be discontinued, as they are no longer available at Midway. If you look at the link to the Shotgun News article I posted earlier, you will find data listed for the A-max bullets with standard tips and the new high heat tips. The BC's listed with the high heat tips match the BC's for the ELD line. Imagine that. I expect to see more of the A-max line transition to the ELD line in the future.

 

[normmatzen]

If that is the case, I applaud Hornady!

And, I'll buy the new ELD when my A-MAX stock runs out.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Not surprised. All the big manufacturers are trying to catch Berger. Folks will be able to see through the smoke n mirrors at the range

 

[raptor1ronin]

I wonder if the have any plans to do the smaller calibers particularly the 80GRN AMAX ?

 

[Filip Hanik]

I'm still looking for what BC, what bullet weight and what muzzle velocity was causing the melting tips.
I see a lot of posts about the smaller rounds, Hornady clearly stated that anything with a sub 0.501 BC were not affected. So what rounds were affected, and at what point (distance/velocity) was the round affected, Because I don't know how to translate the Mach or CD number.

Does anyone have the actual information?

 

[Exocet]

With Sierra's introduction of the Tipped Match King, I wonder if their bullets melt too? Or, are their bullet tips already heat resistant? Sierra has been silent on the issue.

Has anyone heard a position from Sierra on this? I would think that if their tips also did not melt, that they would be saying this too.

 

[jlow]

With Sierra's introduction of the Tipped Match King, I wonder if their bullets melt too? Or, are their bullet tips already heat resistant? Sierra has been silent on the issue.

Has anyone heard a position from Sierra on this? I would think that if their tips also did not melt, that they would be saying this too.

So this type question is exactly the type of doubt Hornady's disclosure might put on its new competitor's bullets. Seems like pretty smart marketing to me....