Hornady Podcast on barrel tuners

[DiRTY DOG]

Hornady basically duplicated Brian Litz' test and then claimed tuners don't work.

Both Litz and Hornady failed to follow the manufacturer's instruction on how to use the tuner.

Hornady ONLY tested using large movements of the tuner (full 360 degree revolutions) instead of making small incremental changes. Litz called his full revolutions "sweeps", while Hornady calls theirs +1 or +2 from baseline. Most tuners advise to make small incremental changes of 2 or 5 hashmarks, maybe 1/12 or 1/16 revolution at a time.

Hornady did not explain why they chose to only test full revolutions and NOT test smaller increments.

Rifles tested: 6Arc, 6.5 Cr, 556

41:35 min- 556 rifle... "On this first test I did 3 different tuner settings and I made pretty big movements of the tuner's adjustment: full revolutions of the indexing marks... full revolutions from baseline of zero..." +1 full revolution from baseline, then +2 full revolution from baseline.

"The test data that we have shows that across those three tests, the tuner did not make changes to the result outside of what would be expected just from test to test."

"...to get to the conclusion of, we've shot nearly a thousand rounds, and you can hang stuff on a barrel and it makes a difference, maybe, but the individual settings don't make a difference. Not from what we saw."

Additionally, a different problem with their test- "for the 556 test we used 55gr FMJ bulk ammo." Why would they use such poor quality ammo for ANY test? The regular (large) variances in velocity and accuracy likey overshadowed any pos/neg changes a tuner would make. Useless test.

Also, they did computer modeling using a 30 cal 24" barrel with a 16oz tuner on the muzzle. Again, literally nobody uses a 16oz muzzle device of any kind. They did not simulate any other reasonable and commonly used weights. Most tuners and brakes are between 2-6oz, nowhere near 16oz. Litz did the same thing testing up to 4lbs muzzle devices.

 

[Dimner]

That's a really odd set of tests they put together. Do they have an agenda? Or do thwy just not understand the intended audience of tuner users? Or perhaps they just needed content to post that would generate buzz?

Are these hornady testers anyone of note?

 

[Danley]

Rule # 1 (or at least it should be): Understand the product that you're testing!

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I don't think this statement will upset anyone and that we can all agree that...if you don't know the value of any adjustment to the tuner and how it should affect the result on the target...you are guessing. Nothing more, nothing less and it doesn't matter what kind of tuner or what it's on.
Simple enough, right?

Now, apparently their test would support that statement but not much else. I'm with the op on this...Why would they spend time and money trying to disprove what so many know to be true. IMHO, any test that starts off with such large adjustments exemplifies the lack of understanding of what they are testing, err...tuners. Starting with low quality ammo would only reinforce that. You have to trust each shot so poor quality ammo is not conducive to that basic aspect of testing, pretty much anything. That gets us to, GIGO...garbage in, garbage out. I would think they know that much so it makes me wonder what their desired outcome actually is. It might fool some people but you don't have to be particularly bright to understand that aspect of any test, with or without regard for their experience or lack of, regarding tuners.

 

[antunRC]

Here is a video:

 

[rmeyerwy]

I have the EC Tuner/brake gen 1 and there is no doubt in my mind that they work and work well. My GS has installed several of them and all are very happy with the improvment from what I have heard.

 

[K22]

Like everything you read on the net, exercise guarded caution before jumping in with both feet. Your own testing and / or experience can reveal the value of the assertions as they apply to you and your chosen shooting discipline.

I have watched a number of their podcasts. They tend to be unnecessarily long, and the core theme sometimes gets lost in all the babble. The ones that I found of some interests were those where they had guests on like Ryan Cleckner and Jeff Siewert. Even so, one must be cautious. However, I haven't changed anything after watching them.

 

[Kracken McGraw]

Rifles tested: 6Arc, 6.5 Cr,

Well there’s your answer. Those two shoot magical anyway.

 

[Bugs]

I certainly don't want to come off sounding like a know-it-all (which I certainly am not) but I would like to hear about the pedigree of the Hornady folks who conducted the test.

 

[Tesoro]

Thanks for not letting me waste time on that video. I just got my first tuner since Boss of the 70's..EC latest version and my rifle never shot better after install and fine tweaking. I have another one coming for a rifle in a chassis that sounds like a tuning fork when I dry fire it. The rifle used to shoot sub moa at 600 in a regular stock and now it cant do moa and a half at 100. This will be the true test!!

 

[jackieschmidt]

I am just thankful that from now on, I can skip having to thread the muzzle end of my barrels for my Tuner.
Next I will stop taking all of that time to make my own bullets and just shoot Hornady‘s.

 

[Jefferson]

I am just thankful that from now on, I can skip having to thread the muzzle end of my barrels for my Tuner.
Next I will stop taking all of that time to make my own bullets and just shoot Hornady‘s.

please do that
amd let me know where you will at so I can come and soundly thrash you like never before

then another of my wet dreams can come true

Thanks bud

 

[Kracken McGraw]

That's a really odd set of tests they put together. Do they have an agenda? Or do thwy just not understand the intended audience of tuner users? Or perhaps they just needed content to post that would generate buzz?

Are these hornady testers anyone of note?

I don’t get it either, why did Hornady even start up that road?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I don’t get it either, why did Hornady even start up that road?

Honestly and given their recent history in cartridge "design", I look for them to claim to have unlocked the secret to tuners sometime in the near future and to claim to have perfected them. They have developed quite the marketing department in the last few years and I think their engineers are likely better than they come across as being in that video. There has simply been too much made public, for too long, for them to be that lost on them.

 

[jackieschmidt]

Honestly and given their recent history in cartridge "design", I look for them to claim to have unlocked the secret to tuners sometime in the near future and to claim to have perfected them. They have developed quite the marketing department in the last few years and I think their engineers are likely better than they come across as being in that video. There has simply been too much made public, for too long, for them to be that lost on them.

“The Creedmoor Muzzle Device”.

The guys over on “bangaway.com” will love it.

 

[R&B]

We still don't really have a definitive handle on how barrels and projectiles work together. There are way too many known and unknown variables to come up with an elegant real world solution. Modeling is one thing real world results and consistent predictions is another. Until quantum computing comes online (we are a long long way off) we will continue to use trial and error, science, technology, intuition and confirmation bias to lead the way.

This reminds me of the the autonomous car problem......... how hard can it be ........... Dam Hard !!!!

Until we understand how barrel and barrel harmonics in conjunction with projectiles actually work we are just figuring it out as we go. That's the way it has always been. These are extremely complex interactions.

The bottom line is figure out what works for you and understand the principle of diminishing returns.

-R&B

 

[jackieschmidt]

^^^^^\
So true.
I do not have to know every detail has to how something works when it comes to extreme accuracy shooting.

I am one of the first competitors to introduce Tuners to the NBRSA. You can not believe the venom that flowed from many who simply refused to allow them. At the National Members meeting the year that the BOD decided to have a membership vote to allow tuners on a probationary schedule for one season, a very well known shooter, gunsmith, and bullet maker took the microphone in hand and said, for all to hear, …”Jackie, most of the members here wish you would disappear”.

I didn’t, and the membership vote “yay“ to allow them.

Since way back then, more and more shooters have discovered that Tuners are simply another tuning aid in achieving The Ultimate in Rifle Accuracy.. A tuner is not a cure all, and learning what is can do, and can not do is simply part of the game.

 

[R&B]

^^^^^\
So true.
I do not have to know every detail has to how something works when it comes to extreme accuracy shooting.

I am one of the first competitors to introduce Tuners to the NBRSA. You can not believe the venom that flowed from many who simply refused to allow them. At the National Members meeting the year that the BOD decided to have a membership vote to allow tuners on a probationary schedule for one season, a very well known shooter, gunsmith, and bullet maker took the microphone in hand and said, for all to hear, …”Jackie, most of the members here wish you would disappear”.

I didn’t, and the membership vote “yay“ to allow them.

Since way back then, more and more shooters have discovered that Tuners are simply another tuning aid in achieving The Ultimate in Rifle Accuracy.. A tuner is not a cure all, and learning what is can do, and can not do is simply part of the game.

Haters are gonna hate! Competitive environments can bring this out in people.

How dare you use something I don't understand to beat me! The other side of the coin is those who believe in magic solutions. Both are very simplistic views of the world. Sustainable real results come from getting in and grinding to find out what works for you. In the mean time all the other stuff is just more distractions to allow for more excuses.

-R&B

 

[Dimner]

if it wasn't for a thousand people trying a thousand crazy ideas and failing at 997 of them, we would never have progress. I respect those who try and fail. I salute those who try and succeed!

 

[Greg@wfcustom]

Speaking as someone who discounted tuners for the first half of my 20+ year BR adventure,
I have now gone full circle and would have a hard time chambering a barrel without threading it up for a tuner.

To Mike's post above, once you understand how they work (not the concept just the reality) your life becomes so much simpler. My light bulb moment was when I realized that I could do the same thing with the tuner that all those boys clicking their measure "thought" they were doing.
Since I was MD/Statistician & cleanup crew I preloaded almost from the start.
The tuner (along with several conversations on the phone with Mike) was the final piece to the puzzle.

I'm sure there are a lot of good designs out there, I just started with and continue to use and recommend to my customers the Ezell PDT. But whatever you use the most important thing is you need to know what that tuner does on your barrel/system, once you do that life is easy-peasy. (Except for the 90% of the equation that is still on the flags)
JMHO/YMMV
G