Hornady Concentricity Comparator/Corrector.

[queen_stick]

camac,

"Talking lathe talk" .... that's what I was thinking when I started typing that post.

I also don't own one, so I may be out of turn as well.

 

[Mikem]

I also have to join the "I dont have one club" (yet) and may not.
But it looks to me like the Hornady tool does contact the bullet below the meplet, and I would think its spring loaded, but dont know that for a fact. If not, it should be.
That's vary true about the V block type, you can check the case or bullet at any pint, and checking at the forward V block, will tell you if the case is round, at that point, or at the case head. I also wonder about slop in the Hornady tool at the moveable bullet end.
If I do get one, ill do some comparison reading on the same case, and see what I get. But we still dont have any standards, as to where to take the readings, so ill pick one, like on the bullets baring surface just forward of the case neck, that would give the fairest reading by both types.
The big difference in the two tools readings are, the closer you get to the meplet with the Hornady the lower the numbers will be, and the higher they will be with the V Block type.
Mike.

 

[jarhead1086]

The end with the round ball you see is spring loaded. You vary the compression by moving the opposite tailstock in or out. I just straightened my first round to .002 on the Hornady and got .005 in a cheapie RCBS V-block . I removed the case and replaced it several times in the Hornady and it repeated to the same number within a needle width. The case body does have some lumps that measure an easy .0005 which could translate some error out to the end using the v block. I will take this to work and see what I get on the $100K equipment instead of the $100 stuff. I have never pulled my hair over run out until I necked down for the first time. .30 to 7 in two steps is too aggressive.

 

[camac]

I'm well and truly past having hair to pull out.....

 

[queen_stick]

Jarhead, please update us with your results on the expensive equipment!

There's a post on the first page by kyreloader, where he compared the Bersin runout tool to the Hornady. I'm not familiar with the Bersin, so I looked it up. Here's a link to the documentation that comes with the Bersin, showing how it works - http://www.docstoc.com/docs/30514972/Bersin-Ammunition-Measuring-Tool

kyreloader - I'm curious what you would get if you ran the same test, but added in a v-block measuring device (compare the Bersin to the Hornady, and also an RCBS v-block). The difference in initial measurements you posted on the first page are significant. (Hornady shows .001, Bersin shows .007)

 

[short range]

So, What is the verdict, is it worth it to buy the Hornady Concentricity Comparator. I'm using Redding Match Bushing neck sizing Die, and the Redding Competion Seating Dies for my 30 BR.

 

[necchi]

So, What is the verdict, is it worth it

Ya know, I think it's up to the individual.
I've been watching this thread, and reading lot's of other's here and elsewhere about the primary topic,,Run out,,it's a big deal.
I've come to the conclusion that's it's better to take steps prior too seating to eliminate/minimize run out, than to try an fix it after it's happened.
For about the same money a feller can get a case gaugeing tool that is multi function,
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=310955
IF, the Hornady tool would measure my case neck prior too seating a bullet I'd get it in a heart beat, but it won't, it's made to ride on the point of the bullet, I can find that measurement with the RCBS tool.

To correct run out after the bullet is seated, you could just as well drill a hole in a 2x4 the size of your bullet, insert and bend, it's basically the same process.

 

[camac]

Good point Nechi, Not to mention you can hand straighten in the RCBS or other V block design tool too (many do).

Apart from the Bersin brochure or website (and I am always wary of the products marketing spiel), has anyone tested whether these tools actually improve accuracy? not just improve runout - but with the negatives of loss of neck tension etc.

 

[short range]

After all the discussion, I think I'm going to buy the RCBS Case Master Concentricity Gauge Tool that necchi had the link to and i think this is the same product that camac was reffering to. It is the only unit that is multi functional and will perform several of the measurements that will be helpful. Thanks everyone for your input.
You mentioned that I can correct runout on the V blocks. What is the best way to do that ?

 

[kyreloader]

Queen-stick, I do not have any v-block measuring tool to compare to the Bersin. I agree it would be interesting to compare the two.

 

[Mikem]

I believe the V-Block types are more accurate and beneficial to the reloader, and this is why I say that; with the V-block type you can conduct all of the test you really need to determine if you have runout, where its at in the case, (body or neck), at what step it appears, and how your attempt to correct it with the dies etc are working, as well as you can mark the necks low side if you plan on straitening them by hand.

I have a V-Block type, that I made, and have compared it to the RCBS unit, but was dissatisfied with the RCBS due to the quality of its dial indicator, so I returned it. But I'm not sure this is a fare comparison, because on my unit I used a high quality Starrett ball tipped arm type dial indicator, that I had. And I doubt any of the units use that quality indicator due to cost.
I also have a Hornady on order now, and will check its operation, and return it if its not satisfactory.

However if I were buying one now, I would consider the V-block type, and just not get bumbed by the dial indicator, they will give you a fairly accurate reading, good enough to find the problem and correct it, as best you can.

What I found from testing Lapua brass from several rifles, 22BR, 6BR and 308, and over a three year period is, that the cases are all straight and round after fire forming, all to with in .001, including neck runout.
So it would appear any more runout is imparted by the dies, but in my opinion, thats not always the case, some is due to case wall thickness, and as soon as you run it through any sizing die, some runout will appear, as the thick side of the neck wont move as easily as the thin side will. And if you mark the high or low side of that neck, you will find that case will have runout in the same place or side the next time, and ever time you reload it.
So you either set them aside, use them as foulers, or hand straighten them after every reloading, like I do.

But without some type of tester, you wont know whats going on with runout, or if you can do anything to correct it.
I have not conducted any tests yet, to determine if straight cases shoot better than ones with runout, but I suspect they do.
Mike.

 

[camac]

I agree 100% with Mikes comments and would like to add a couple more thoughts on the ball bearing type.
1) A ball bearing can be out of round and create runout (can't happen on V block), It is worth thorough checking on the ball bearing types before relying on their results. I am unsure of the sinclair system?.
2) I would try and avoid hand straightening on a ball bearing type as they may give two pressure points rather than two lines. I would imagine You are more likely to cause indentation in the shoulder than with V block.

 

[toodogs]

quote Mikem: What I found from testing Lapua brass from several rifles, 22BR, 6BR and 308, and over a three year period is, that the cases are all straight and round after fire forming, all to with in .001, including neck runout.
So it would appear any more runout is imparted by the dies, but in my opinion, thats not always the case, some is due to case wall thickness, and as soon as you run it through any sizing die, some runout will appear, as the thick side of the neck wont move as easily as the thin side will. And if you mark the high or low side of that neck, you will find that case will have runout in the same place or side the next time, and ever time you reload it.
So you either set them aside, use them as foulers, or hand straighten them after every reloading, like I do.

But without some type of tester, you wont know whats going on with runout, or if you can do anything to correct it. eoq>

True regarding case wall thickness. I've experienced the same where the mark remains where the case neck/shoulder region distortion is. Consider the TruAngle http://trutool-equipment.com/

 

[camac]

It came to me (I'm not always the quickest) whilst looking at the pictures of the bruno system (and I believe touched on by a few people here including Mikem and others) that you should actually measure runout as far from the tips as possible in this type of system. Assuming the closer you get to the tip, the smaller the runout as it is the fixed point. Moving back to the neck or shoulder should give you the most runout. On this system kyreloader and Frank, we should easure runout at neck and on the v block or Bersin down the bullet at ogive or nearer tip to get a similar reading and make the comparison fairer. Those that own this tool should measure and correct for runout as close to neck as possible or indeed point of bending on neck as seen in above diagrams.

 

[Mikem]

toodogs: Great picture, and dead on info, its true, a picture is worth a thousand words. Now we just need to find a way to stop it from happening.
That tool would beat using an empty case.

camac: Thats my opinion as well on the different readings. Reading in the middle of the case neck, or closer to its mouth is what we should call our runout, when quoting numbers hear, or for comparison. But you cant compare the two types of tools, they will read the same case different, I think. And donuts dont help.
For ease of finding and correcting runout on loaded rounds, I take my reading close to the meplet, just so I have a higher number to work with. (Example, with a V-block unit) A neck may test at .002, in its center, but when taking out near the meplet, (but not close enough for it to interfere) or even on the bullets baring surface, it might read .006+.

Like I said before, there is no standard place to take the readings, that im aware of, so when numbers are posted, you cant compare tools or ammo runout. Maybe we can start a standard place to take the readings so were all on the same page. Like 1/8" back from the necks mouth, or in the center of the neck, half way between the mouth and neck/shoulder junction.

I will admit, I haven't read all of the info referred to on this thread, so if there's a standard, where is it?
Mike.

 

[bingo1010]

does anyone of you with the hornady have access to the h&h conc tool? i have one and i like the principles that it was designed around. a v block, and not contacting the case head, as well as the ability to straighten

 

[GermanS1]

Mike, Camac - I agree completely on the need for a standardized place to measure runout for purposes of these discussions. I set my tools to measure at 0.0125" to 0.0150" back from the mouth on empty cases and about 0.010" behind the ogive on loaded rounds. There's a bit of imprecision involved but I can hit these numbers pretty close.

I mark the first bullet to be checked with the Sinclair hex nut comparator (rub it a bit in there and it will leave a visible line) and then set the indicator up to read right behind the line. For the necks I make a thick line on the neck with a Sharpie marker, then I make a small scribe line at the 0.0125" point and set the tool up there. Obviously this only needs to be done on one case or cartridge per session.

I use the ogive on the loaded rounds because that will be the point of initial contact with the lands and therefore, is in my opinion, the most critical point. Just my opinion on thses things, let's hear some more thoughts!

 

[camac]

Great - now this will be very interesting. And also great to get some further discussion going.
The reasons everyone measures in these different spots are good reasons but this doesn't mean there can't be some from of standardisation practice. What I mean is, we may end up with several standardised points that we could refer to. Which ones you choose to use might be dependant on your needs (and gauges).

Let's start with the first big issue to discuss and work through from there:
1) The different types of gauges measure differently. The hornady and Bruno capture the front of bullet and head of case. Maximum runout is in the middle somewhere. The sinclair, Neco, RCBS etc ("V BLOCK") use case head and shoulder and maximum runout is at bullet tip. Now literally as Mikem pointed out we cannot compare the readout from same point of case between these "types".

Example: German - I measure in a similar place to you on my V block for the same reason. It is the front contact surface of bullet that actually effect the projectile. Mikems reason for measuring further along is good as it allows for more "exageration" of the reading and small differences show up clearer. All that aside. If you took a loaded cartridge with large runout a reading near meplat with a V block would show a lot of runout (for example say 7 thou) and slightly less near ogive (say 3-5 thou). BUT this would show up as almost zero on the bruno or hornady at the meplat and a little more near the ogive. Move back to base of neck and the V block would show very little but the Bruno/hornady would show a lot (close to 7 thou).

Obviously the two types of gauges will require measurements in different areas but this does not mean we can't "define" the points. Those with both types (kyreloader, German etc) may be able to help guide us through this process.

There are many other things that effect "runout" measurements (OAL etc) but if we can try and discuss the first big issue (Different gauge types and defining these) before moving on then we might save some confusion (I can't think of too much at once). And this is the correct thread for that discussion.

Cam

 

[Mikem]

Its my opinion, and vote, that if someone is going to post numbers in there discussion about runout, that they should first specify the type of measuring tool, V-Block or Lathe type.

If its the V-Block type, go with the neck and bullet location that German uses, say ".015 below the case mouth" on empty brass. And for loaded rounds, on the bullets bearing surface and ".010 below the ogive".
But the empty case reading would be the best number to post. Bullets will vary.

It may also be the best locations when using the Lathe type, and that would be good, as its then standardized with both types of tools, tho the readings would be different between the two types.
We could also hear from some of the guys "and gals" that have the Lathe type, and see what they think.
As well as from someone that has both types of tools, so they could tell us what the difference in readings are, using the same case.

This would go a long way towards knowing how much of a runout problem someone has when they post numbers.

I always wonder about the guy that always has .001 to .0015, right out of the dies, I wish I did.
Mike.

 

[camac]

I agree we need to 1) specify which type of gauge, 2) position and if you are going to give a runout on bullet this position should be described in relationship to ogive or bullet tip "and" case mouth so that we know how far out it is. comparing runout on a 140Gr VLD 6.5 at meplat to an 80 gr FB 6mm at ogive is no comparison but they both do have meaning if understood and described correctly. Similarly same bullet, same point on bullet but with different seating depths.

The real issue that everyone must understand. To measure neck runout on empty case in a Bruno or such cannot be done at the case mouth. It is reversed and should be done at base of neck. This being said though I believe neck runout on a v block measured near case mouth should give a "similar" (although larger) result to a bruno done at base of neck. You can work backwards off a bruno or hornady by sliding gauge progressively down neck and onto shoulder to see where "maximum" runout is. This is the point where the bend is initiated.

Mike I also agree - it takes a lot of work on dies or custom dies to get that sort of runout consistently across the board. You have to be very lucky with matching chambers to do it with an off the shelf die. I believe it is a bit like quoting group size - we all quote the "best" one not the average.