Hornady 80ELD, anyone using them in 223?

[Michael C]

I was talking to a guy about the BC on this bullet, and wondering if anyone using the Hornady 80g ELD for 600 to 1000 in a 223? Wondering what your experience has been with ithis bullet. Mike

 

[SurgeonCO]

I’m shooting them in a straight 223. It’s used as a trainer, I have a bolt for it on my surgeon. It’s a pretty good little bullet, doesn’t give up much if you can push it close to 2950

 

[skiutah02]

It's a very long story about how I got the 80eld going but here is a target from a Dec 300m match after 12 rounds of testing, but yeah, they work well. During the match I used three different rifles (a 308 and two 223s), three bullets (185jugg, 90vld and 80eld), and six different loads with the 80eld providing a 200-12x. I'll be going with the last load, as shown by the target. The winds weren't bad, but were the worst for the last string despite it being the best group of the day for me.

 

[Evlshnngns]

It's a very long story about how I got the 80eld going but here is a target from a Dec 300m match after 12 rounds of testing, but yeah, they work well. During the match I used three different rifles (a 308 and two 223s), three bullets (185jugg, 90vld and 80eld), and six different loads with the 80eld providing a 200-12x. I'll be going with the last load, as shown by the target. The winds weren't bad, but were the worst for the last string despite it being the best group of the day for me.

View attachment 1043674

I would like to know the road you took making them shoot like that.

What twist is everyone using for these in a long bolt gun? I'm not sure how much the plastic tip effects twist or I would us the Berger calc.

 

[skiutah02]

I would like to know the road you took making them shoot like that.

What twist is everyone using for these in a long bolt gun? I'm not sure how much the plastic tip effects twist or I would us the Berger calc.

PM me and I can elaborate. The plastic tips should not effect a twist calculation. This barrel was an 8 twist.

 

[nmkid]

I think we are talking about the same bullet...I have some waiting for my 22Creedmoor barrel

 

[skiutah02]

I've sent this to a few people, but no reason not to share. I didn't intend to imply that they were hard to tune or there is some magic. In fact, they are pretty easy to tune, as are most 80s in a 223. The longer story is just how I came to even test these.

At Fclass Nationals, I met someone who was also having his daughter shoot a 223 at Midrange (Al and Sydney Lipski). He mentioned that I should give the 80elds a try (I shoot the 90vld at MR). I acquired a free barrel on AS that someone felt was shot out (3500 rounds), and figured I'd build a 223 that I could loan to sons/daughters/wives/1st time shooters to try at matches I travel to (I get around). It has a shortish throat based upon the seating depths I ended up at. I only shot about 20 rounds before settling upon two seating depths to try. I shot one seating depth for the 1st 10 shots of the string (picture shown below) and the second seating depth for 10 rounds which is shown in thread above (for the 200-12x). They varied by 0.010 with the latter a better looking group (but vertical was quite similar). Impressively, I used LC brass sized for a different rifle and what ever primer I happen to have in the brass. Ta-da

Of course you will test for yourself, but the load is RL-15 (24.70 gr) with a 0.015 jump. I will have to look at my notes about the primer. The 0.100 freebore is almost certainly longer than this barrel. Here is the first 10 shots at about 0.005 jump.

Drew

 

[dstoenner]

I shot a F-Class midrange with the AMAX version. Except for the color of the tip, I cannot find any difference between AMAX vs ELD-M. I was using my Remington 700 with a Shilen 1:8 Wylde chambered. The load was 25 gn Varget in Lapua cases, CCI BR4 primers. COL was 2.525 (my throat is out about 100 thousands from what it was new). My numerical score was the same as I had shot with my normal F-Class rifle, a 260 Remington but I didn't have as high a X count in the same 300/500/600 match the year before. The 6.5 bullets just have less wind drift than the 224 bullets.

The only positive I can say that at the end of the day, I was not fatigued at all. The lighter recoil with a 5 pound lighter rifle made shooting and then moving sooo much easier.

David

 

[Laurie]

I shot a F-Class midrange with the AMAX version. Except for the color of the tip, I cannot find any difference between AMAX vs ELD-M.

There are subtle, but obviously valuable changes made by Hornady in moving from the AMax to the ELD-M. Their respective (drag related) 'form factor' values are 0.987 and 0.882 respectively. That sub 0.9 value for the ELD is stunningly good for a 0.224" bullet, lower than that of any Berger VLDs even the 90gn model. So, whilst the AMax produces 2.3% less drag than the G7 'reference projectile', the ELD has improved to nearly 12% less.

Given that both models weigh the same and are the same diameter therefore have the same SD value of 0.228, when combined with their form factors, the Amax's G7 BC is 0.231 and that improves to 0.258 with the ELD, not that far shy of the 90gn Berger's 0.272, but in a lighter bullet that can be driven faster. (To be fair, the HPBT form of the VLD can be pointed giving maybe another 3 or 4% onto its BC value.)

Bearing in mind that as you say there is little to no outward change in appearance, what are the differences in shape? The primary one is a significantly increased nose radius figure, a more secant form and it becomes more of a true VLD, its Rt/R ratio reducing from 0.67 to 0.50 which represents an out and out aggressive secant VLD form - so interesting / encouraging that it is shooting well with a 15 thou' jump reported by Drew.

All of the above figures are shamelessly plagiarised from Bryan Litz's Ballistic Performance of Rifle Bullets 3rd edition. When the book arrived some few months ago, checking up on what seemed inflated BC improvements for some the ELDs was one of the first things I did, and yes I confirmed to myself that despite apparently modest shape refinements, where Hornady has made changes from the older models, they do deliver significant BC improvements. Another such is the 162gn 7mm ELD-M whose BC of 0.327 compares to 0.307 for the older AMax. As with the 80gn 22s, I doubt if you would spot any shape differences at a casual glance or even a moderately hard one. I was so impressed, I bought a couple of hundred to try in my sevens.

I hadn't considered the 80gn 224 ELD until this thread got my interest up. So how does the 80gn ELD compare to the 90gn Berger VLD in FTR in a paper ballistics exercise?

A popular 223 / 90 MV is 2,825 fps, that producing 1,595 ft/lb ME. The ballistic equivalent for an 80gn bullet (ie whose MV produces that ME value) is 2,995 fps MV (1,594 ft/lb ME). Run the pair through a ballistic program and you get:

90 Berger VLD @ 2,825
600 yards ................ 1,892 fps ............ 2.54 inches movement / 1 mph 90-deg wind change.
1,000 yards ............. 1,375 fps ............ 8.2 inches

80gn ELD-M @ 2,995 fps
600 yards ................ 1,944 fps ............ 2.55 inches movement / 1 mph 90-deg wind change.
1,000 yards ............. 1,389 fps ............ 8.28 inches

So, to my surprise, nearly identical performance in theory anyway if that 'equivalent MV' works out and delivers the required accuracy on or close to that figure.

............. it looks like I'll be dropping on Hannams Reloading in North Yorkshire (England) for some more ELDs to try the next time I pass that way.

 

[dstoenner]

There are subtle, but obviously valuable changes made by Hornady in moving from the AMax to the ELD-M. Their respective (drag related) 'form factor' values are 0.987 and 0.882 respectively. That sub 0.9 value for the ELD is stunningly good for a 0.224" bullet, lower than that of any Berger VLDs even the 90gn model. So, whilst the AMax produces 2.3% less drag than the G7 'reference projectile', the ELD has improved to nearly 12% less.

Given that both models weigh the same and are the same diameter therefore have the same SD value of 0.228, when combined with their form factors, the Amax's G7 BC is 0.231 and that improves to 0.258 with the ELD, not that far shy of the 90gn Berger's 0.272, but in a lighter bullet that can be driven faster. (To be fair, the HPBT form of the VLD can be pointed giving maybe another 3 or 4% onto its BC value.)

Bearing in mind that as you say there is little to no outward change in appearance, what are the differences in shape? The primary one is a significantly increased nose radius figure, a more secant form and it becomes more of a true VLD, its Rt/R ratio reducing from 0.67 to 0.50 which represents an out and out aggressive secant VLD form - so interesting / encouraging that it is shooting well with a 15 thou' jump reported by Drew.

All of the above figures are shamelessly plagiarised from Bryan Litz's Ballistic Performance of Rifle Bullets 3rd edition. When the book arrived some few months ago, checking up on what seemed inflated BC improvements for some the ELDs was one of the first things I did, and yes I confirmed to myself that despite apparently modest shape refinements, where Hornady has made changes from the older models, they do deliver significant BC improvements. Another such is the 162gn 7mm ELD-M whose BC of 0.327 compares to 0.307 for the older AMax. As with the 80gn 22s, I doubt if you would spot any shape differences at a casual glance or even a moderately hard one. I was so impressed, I bought a couple of hundred to try in my sevens.

I hadn't considered the 80gn 224 ELD until this thread got my interest up. So how does the 80gn ELD compare to the 90gn Berger VLD in FTR in a paper ballistics exercise?

A popular 223 / 90 MV is 2,825 fps, that producing 1,595 ft/lb ME. The ballistic equivalent for an 80gn bullet (ie whose MV produces that ME value) is 2,995 fps MV (1,594 ft/lb ME). Run the pair through a ballistic program and you get:

90 Berger VLD @ 2,825
600 yards ................ 1,892 fps ............ 2.54 inches movement / 1 mph 90-deg wind change.
1,000 yards ............. 1,375 fps ............ 8.2 inches

80gn ELD-M @ 2,995 fps
600 yards ................ 1,944 fps ............ 2.55 inches movement / 1 mph 90-deg wind change.
1,000 yards ............. 1,389 fps ............ 8.28 inches

So, to my surprise, nearly identical performance in theory anyway if that 'equivalent MV' works out and delivers the required accuracy on or close to that figure.

............. it looks like I'll be dropping on Hannams Reloading in North Yorkshire (England) for some more ELDs to try the next time I pass that way.

Laurie,

Well I do stand corrected. You are right on first blush they seem to be identical. Measuring bearing surface (.010 less for the ELD) and length they seemed to be almost the same. I did get a box of the ELD-M's when they came out and found that they shot to the exact POI at 100 that my AMAXes shot to and they had very similar group size. The time I was doing that comparison was after I had already shot the mid range match and came to the conclusion that i will keep going with my 260 rather than try to switch guns.

So now you have gone and done it and I am going to also have to take a harder look at the ELD-Ms. Maybe they would be better than I thought. Isn't that the fun of all of this.

David