Hey AR Guys Part 2.....

[Adam in WI]

Loading for and tuning LR BR rifles kind of sucks all of the reloading zeal out of you.

I load for BR and my hunting rifles. Pistols and ARs get factory ammo.

As Dexter noted, loading doesn't need a whole lot of zeal in an AR. Some prepped military brass and a decent varmint bullet on top of a middle of the road charge of Varget should easily beat the average you've been getting with factory.

This has been my attitude toward loading 223; load ten rounds, test fire and say yep that'll do. Load 40 more and go hunting.

 

[skeeljc]

If you are ready for a good barrel consider this.

White Oak 18" 3 Gun MK barrel with .223/5.56 Wylde chamber with 1 in 8 twist. Mine will stay sub MOA at 100 yards all day with 75 gr Hornady Match HP Boat Tail (bulk) over 24 grains of Reloader 15.

 

[INTJ]

Load 40? When I attend a carbine training course I'll need 300-800 rounds. I need to be able to by inexpensive ammo and have it shoot ok.

All my equipment is set up for low volume reloading. I typically load 75 rounds at a time for a LR BR match, 150 for a two day match. It takes a while with all the measuring and sorting.

To load 300+ AR rounds on top of that, even though there is much less sorting and prepping, would just take too much time. To have a chance at getting that done and staying in LR BR would mean investing in a Dillon progressive press.

I just have no interest in going progressive in any context.......

 

[Bc'z]

Load 40? When I attend a carbine training course I'll need 300-800 rounds. I need to be able to by inexpensive ammo and have it shoot ok.

All my equipment is set up for low volume reloading. I typically load 75 rounds at a time for a LR BR match, 150 for a two day match. It takes a while with all the measuring and sorting.

To load 300+ AR rounds on top of that, even though there is much less sorting and prepping, would just take too much time. To have a chance at getting that done and staying in LR BR would mean investing in a Dillon progressive press.

I just have no interest in going progressive in any context.......

Just take your time loading it, ya dont have to make it a priority.
Match ammo 1st, quality plinking ammo 2nd.
This is how I load for 1 of our AR's, a 6x45, the other 2 I have a load they both shoot respectively that I do on the Dillon.

 

[Mojomfg]

Yesterday with the improved setup and a couple new ammo types tried, 5-shot 100 yd groups were:

Remington 55 grain FMJ: 2.75"
Black Hills 77 Tipped MK: 3.375"
Hornady 75 BTHP: 2"
Hornady 55 VMax: 1.19"
PMC 77 grain OTM: 1.375"
Horn 73 ELD Match: 3.5"
Rem 55 grain MC: 3"

So it turns out it wasn't my rest, targets, and 4x scope that were the issue; it's that the barrel sucks. Now I realize I won't get BR level accuracy from a 16" AR Carbine, but it at least ought to make hunting rifle accuracy.[/QUOTE]

I do believe i said in part 1. I said to improve your rest . swap scope and retry the hornady 55g .

Now do a budget trigger job for $1.00. And you just might settle around 1 moa

 

[rebelyell]

I have no idea how experienced a shooter you are, so all of this may not apply. If you're used to bolt gun accuracy, you're going to be a little disappointed with that AR. But some of this should help.

Look in the manual and see if there's a break in period. Some MFG's require a break in period to smooth down some of the manufacturing burrs. Especially true if it's a button rifled barrel. Speaking of.. I looked up the specs on the BRO Spec 15 and couldn't find any information on the barrel. The twist rate will tell you what grain bullets to chase but it looks like you're getting the best groups out of the 55gr Vmax.

Might be worth shooting a group or two without that flash hider. Sometimes armorers will torque the crap out of the FH to time it and that can deform the crown. Keep in mind that you'll have to replace the crush washer and re-time it when you remove the flash hider. Easy job, but you'll need the right tools.

Get rid of the Mil-Spec trigger. Get a Geissele/ALG or a Triggertech. Small investment will give you a much better payoff.

Yes, check clearances between the barrel/gas block and rail. I would go so far as to unbolt the rail and re-torque the bbl nut, but I have everything I need to do that at home.

Also try a different scope. Anything not a Burris or similar. And I would try a different mount. If you're chasing SubMOA then try this.

And if none of this works to your satisfaction, it's barrel time. Other members have had good suggestions for manufacturers. Proof research, bartlein, shilen, krieger, and white oak. I even think Shilen offers a bolt matched to a barrel.

 

[INTJ]

I have no idea how experienced a shooter you are, so all of this may not apply. If you're used to bolt gun accuracy, you're going to be a little disappointed with that AR. But some of this should help.

Look in the manual and see if there's a break in period. Some MFG's require a break in period to smooth down some of the manufacturing burrs. Especially true if it's a button rifled barrel. Speaking of.. I looked up the specs on the BRO Spec 15 and couldn't find any information on the barrel. The twist rate will tell you what grain bullets to chase but it looks like you're getting the best groups out of the 55gr Vmax.

Might be worth shooting a group or two without that flash hider. Sometimes armorers will torque the crap out of the FH to time it and that can deform the crown. Keep in mind that you'll have to replace the crush washer and re-time it when you remove the flash hider. Easy job, but you'll need the right tools.

Get rid of the Mil-Spec trigger. Get a Geissele/ALG or a Triggertech. Small investment will give you a much better payoff.

Yes, check clearances between the barrel/gas block and rail. I would go so far as to unbolt the rail and re-torque the bbl nut, but I have everything I need to do that at home.

Also try a different scope. Anything not a Burris or similar. And I would try a different mount. If you're chasing SubMOA then try this.

And if none of this works to your satisfaction, it's barrel time. Other members have had good suggestions for manufacturers. Proof research, bartlein, shilen, krieger, and white oak. I even think Shilen offers a bolt matched to a barrel.

The barrel is the single most import part of accuracy. A good barrel is more tolerant to various loads and usually shows it potential quickly. Usually within the first 100 rounds. A bad barrel let's you know pretty quickly as well. The ones that give us pause are the pretty good barrels. Often, with enough load development a pretty good barrel can meet desired accuracy. If not, then you wasted your time.

I am well past the point in shooting that I am willing to work with anything but good barrels.

I do not ascribe to the break-in idea. In all the years I have been doing this I have never seen a difference between the accuracy and longevity of a broken in barrel and one that isn't. Some barrels foul more the first 100-200 rounds, others foul minimally from the first shot. Others see this differently.

Like I mentioned, I am going to stone the trigger. In its present state it is fine for the bench, where I can slowly squeeze and make sure there is no movement on the target, but for accurate offhand this trigger is too heavy.

When I change to barrel in a couple days I will make sure there is gas block and gas tube clearance.

While I am not a huge Burris scope fan, which is why I had the extra scope, there is nothing wrong with these scopes for this application. The mounts are solid as well.

Like I mentioned, I'll try the barrel that's coming tomorrow. If per chance it doesn't work then I'll get a barrel blank and chamber it myself. That way I know it's done right.

 

[dryhumor]

You might try a spring kit in your trigger along with stoning.

Wiggle your upper. Is it solid to the lower, or is there movement you can see and feel. There are fixes for that; commercial ones. Or you could bed the two mating surfaces. Carefully.

 

[rebelyell]

Whose bbl did you get? I hope that fixes it. Replacing the standard BRO barrel and mil-std trigger is probably going to fix the issue since you're pretty experienced and have all the standard bases covered.

I can't shoot a standard mil spec trigger to save my life. I prefer a flat blade timney or triggertech.

I only mentioned the break in process because sometimes burrs will be left when the gas port is drilled. I've seen it on cheap barrels. Things tend to work better once they've worn down a little and springs and such take a set. Trigger, for example. And barrel fouling too.

 

[INTJ]

You might try a spring kit in your trigger along with stoning.

Wiggle your upper. Is it solid to the lower, or is there movement you can see and feel. There are fixes for that; commercial ones. Or you could bed the two mating surfaces. Carefully.

Upper and lower are tight and I ordered the spring kit with the rest of the stuff.

 

[INTJ]

Whose bbl did you get? I hope that fixes it. Replacing the standard BRO barrel and mil-std trigger is probably going to fix the issue since you're pretty experienced and have all the standard bases covered.

I can't shoot a standard mil spec trigger to save my life. I prefer a flat blade timney or triggertech.

I only mentioned the break in process because sometimes burrs will be left when the gas port is drilled. I've seen it on cheap barrels. Things tend to work better once they've worn down a little and springs and such take a set. Trigger, for example. And barrel fouling too.

It was from Midway, AR/Stoner. Has mostly good reviews and was at a price I liked ($140) for this gun. I'll spend 3x as much for a barrel on a competition or hunting rifle, but this one takes me from a 1x7 to a 1x8 twist and has a Wylde chamber. As long as the barrel was machined reasonably well those advantages should be enough to get where I want to be. We will see soon and then I'll post..........

 

[hoz53]

To quickly catch up. The BRO Spec 15 is an average priced AR, not one of their high end ones. I have explained my plan to rebarrel with a 16" 1x8 stainless Wylde chamber, polish the trigger and replace the springs, and use an adjustable gas block. The barrel I am trying gets mostly good reviews.

After I get it assembled and tuned we'll see how it shoots. My requirements are sub moa with its preferred ammo and 2 MOA with cheap ammo. If this barrel won't do that then my only option will be to suck it up, get a good quality barrel blank, get a Wylde reamer, and chamber it myself.

This is a self-defense AR Carbine and I need to have confidence in it with the ammo that is available.

well if youre having fun with it thats what makes the world go round for sure.

 

[Hohn]

A good quality AR should be capable of sub moa with handloads and little difficulty. All that is required is a free float handguard and a quality barrel. Even a non free float gun should be able to do 1.5 moa with handloads.

My Daniel Defense barrel will do 5rd sub moa with factory 69smk loads and 3/4 moa with handloads 75/80s. Not bad for a NATO chamber and chrome lined barrel.

No action truing or any of that needed. Just a good quality barrel properly installed and you should easily beat 2 moa with everything but the worst 55gr stuff.

 

[mauser284]

That is terrible. I do not know your skill with a rifle but over all those groups are terrible. It is not that hard to get moa out of a decent civilian AR and AR clone. Heck a PSA or DPMS with Wolf Ammo should be able to shoot the groups you got. Something is not right with your build!

 

[whatsupdoc]

The barrel is the single most import part of accuracy.

I believe you are mistaken replace the word "barrel" with "shooter".

 

[Evan]

To quickly catch up. The BRO Spec 15 is an average priced AR, not one of their high end ones. I have explained my plan to rebarrel with a 16" 1x8 stainless Wylde chamber, polish the trigger and replace the springs, and use an adjustable gas block. The barrel I am trying gets mostly good reviews.

After I get it assembled and tuned we'll see how it shoots. My requirements are sub moa with its preferred ammo and 2 MOA with cheap ammo. If this barrel won't do that then my only option will be to suck it up, get a good quality barrel blank, get a Wylde reamer, and chamber it myself.

This is a self-defense AR Carbine and I need to have confidence in it with the ammo that is available.

5 factory loads shot under your 2 MOA desire. Honestly, I've never seen the cheapest of ammo shoot under 2MOA consistently anyway. I don't know what training or classes you are looking at taking, but in my admittedly limited knowledge, close quarters, confined/enclosed space, and rapid engagement don't require better than 4-6MOA.

That said, I don't play with black rifles because I can't get over "what they should do" and live with what they actually do.

 

[INTJ]

I believe you are mistaken replace the word "barrel" with "shooter".

Not for me or any of the guys I shoot with.... Our mistakes might take a 100 yd group from .5 to .6. Maybe .7 if we are having a bad day. A bad barrel can take a .5 group and make it 4 MOA....

 

[Oso]

my plinking load is 55gr Hornady BTHP ($0.09/bullet), Powder H335, and CCI #41 Military or #450 Small Magnum primer. This consistently outshoots store-bought ammo, and is 0.5" - 0.75" loaded to mag length.

Assuming you have good barrel mated tightly in upper receiver and upper/lower receivers are not terribly loose, the biggest improvement is to replace the trigger. You get what you pay for. There are any number of quality replacements. I like the Giselle SSA-E as an all around trigger.

Once you have upgraded your trigger the next step is to improve the recoil impulse. Unlike a bolt gun, the internal moving pieces in AR really impact performance. An adjustable gas block can greatly decrease the amount of recoil/force of bolt carrier group slamming backwards. Make life easy and buy one that has the adjustment screw facing forward (toward muzzle) so that there is no interference accessing it.

 

[Hohn]

Not for me or any of the guys I shoot with.... Our mistakes might take a 100 yd group from .5 to .6. Maybe .7 if we are having a bad day. A bad barrel can take a .5 group and make it 4 MOA....

It would take a serious flinch or other encumbrance to make the shooter a 3 MOA factor shooting an AR. They are very easy to shoot. Countless videos of small kids ringing small steel at distance with an AR.

So while I'd agree with the general assertion that shooter>rifle overall, you very quickly move past that with all but the worst shooters, and I'd venture to say almost any regular around here is capable enough to outshoot a bad barrel at 100y.

 

[wkdickinson]

Load 40? When I attend a carbine training course I'll need 300-800 rounds. I need to be able to by inexpensive ammo and have it shoot ok.

All my equipment is set up for low volume reloading. I typically load 75 rounds at a time for a LR BR match, 150 for a two day match. It takes a while with all the measuring and sorting.

To load 300+ AR rounds on top of that, even though there is much less sorting and prepping, would just take too much time. To have a chance at getting that done and staying in LR BR would mean investing in a Dillon progressive press.

I just have no interest in going progressive in any context.......

"I need to be able to by inexpensive ammo and have it shoot ok." - Good luck with that

I have a late 90's Colt AR15 (CAR version) with the stock Colt 24" 1:9 twist SS barrel. When I shoot the garbage ammo you can buy from Gander or Cabella's in it, I get 3"-4" 5-shot groups at 200 yds. But when I shoot, many times fired random cases, BR4 primers, Varget and 50 gr V-Max bullets, it shoots 0.5 moa 5-shot groups at 200 yds.