I believe the relevant federal laws apply mainly to 'out-of-state' transfers; when ownership crosses a state line.
I suspect shipping a gun to one's self is mainly an issue of shipper's rules, not federal law.
Here's how to ship a rifle.
- Thread starter WindSurgeon
- Start date
I believe the relevant federal laws apply mainly to 'out-of-state' transfers; when ownership crosses a state line.
I suspect shipping a gun to one's self is mainly an issue of shipper's rules, not federal law.
BountyHunter
Gold $$ Contributor
Couple words of caution.
1. With UPS and FEDEX you are not buying insurance. You are buying additional declared value. Read the receipts. There is a difference.
2. Both have explicit written instructions on how to package firearms. 2" solid foam all the way around is the norm. You need to follow their instructions. They have grounds to deny if you do not follow the requirements.
3. Both consider manufacturers original shipping boxes as "one time use" only.
4. If you use a 3rd party shipper such as a Mail Box, they have the claim not you!! You have to give all your documentation to them and let them file the claim and hopefully they are as passionate about your money as you are. Again, read the receipt they give you.
5. IF there is damage, have the receiver maintain all original shipping boxes, wrapping, foam etc and ask the shipper in writing (UPS/FEDEX/USPS) to go see the packaging. Have the receiver take plenty of pics and send them to you. Hopefully, the receiver had the delivery person note damage etc at time of delivery.
6. All will want you to "prove" current value and they will try to depreciate that. You must have documentation of current replacement value.
7. They will routinely deny the claim saying you failed do to something they required or at best offer maybe 25% of declared value. Here is how to respond again in writing and this is why they only have $100 standard insurance and require the additional declared value be purchase.
Liability of shippers/carriers is controlled by the Carmack Amendment of 1906 to the Interstate Commerce Act which "makes carriers liable for the full actual loss, damage, or injury*** caused by them to property they transport and declares unlawful and void any contract, regulation or tariff, or other means of limiting liability. "
The statute codifies that a carrier is liable for damage to goods transported UNLESS it can show the damage was cause by one of the following exceptions allowed by law:
a. the act of God,
b. public enemy
c. the act of the shipper himself
d. Public Authority
e. the inherent vice or nature of the goods.
Those are the ONLY exceptions for the carrier. Since they cannot show any of those they are on the hook.
By the way, this was specifically upheld the US Supreme Court ruling in Missouri Pacific Railroad vs. Elmore & Stahl, (1964).. The above comments were taken from the Supreme Court decision.
"You can pay the claim or I will file a small claims case and then you will pay the claim, and my attorney fees and filing charges etc." (Most small claims courts do not require an attorney and pretty easy filing with minimal costs to file and have sheriff deliver claim to the shipper (UPS/FEDEX and 3rd party shipper etc.)
NOTE: Copy this statement and save it for later.
8. Depending on how you shipped it, if they deny the claim you can sue either the shipper or 3rd party in small claims court and win with above statement and copy of the US Supreme Court decision which can be downloaded. That makes your case simple normally as they cannot fight a supreme court decision. Just give the judge a copy of the decision to back up your claim.
9. Note also that 3rd party shippers often do not buy additional declared value from the shipper (UPS/FEDEX). They carry private insurance that makes filing a claim even harder. Then you are suing the shipping company, the 3rd party shipper and his insurance so you have 3 defendants.
Been there and done that.
1. With UPS and FEDEX you are not buying insurance. You are buying additional declared value. Read the receipts. There is a difference.
2. Both have explicit written instructions on how to package firearms. 2" solid foam all the way around is the norm. You need to follow their instructions. They have grounds to deny if you do not follow the requirements.
3. Both consider manufacturers original shipping boxes as "one time use" only.
4. If you use a 3rd party shipper such as a Mail Box, they have the claim not you!! You have to give all your documentation to them and let them file the claim and hopefully they are as passionate about your money as you are. Again, read the receipt they give you.
5. IF there is damage, have the receiver maintain all original shipping boxes, wrapping, foam etc and ask the shipper in writing (UPS/FEDEX/USPS) to go see the packaging. Have the receiver take plenty of pics and send them to you. Hopefully, the receiver had the delivery person note damage etc at time of delivery.
6. All will want you to "prove" current value and they will try to depreciate that. You must have documentation of current replacement value.
7. They will routinely deny the claim saying you failed do to something they required or at best offer maybe 25% of declared value. Here is how to respond again in writing and this is why they only have $100 standard insurance and require the additional declared value be purchase.
Liability of shippers/carriers is controlled by the Carmack Amendment of 1906 to the Interstate Commerce Act which "makes carriers liable for the full actual loss, damage, or injury*** caused by them to property they transport and declares unlawful and void any contract, regulation or tariff, or other means of limiting liability. "
The statute codifies that a carrier is liable for damage to goods transported UNLESS it can show the damage was cause by one of the following exceptions allowed by law:
a. the act of God,
b. public enemy
c. the act of the shipper himself
d. Public Authority
e. the inherent vice or nature of the goods.
Those are the ONLY exceptions for the carrier. Since they cannot show any of those they are on the hook.
By the way, this was specifically upheld the US Supreme Court ruling in Missouri Pacific Railroad vs. Elmore & Stahl, (1964).. The above comments were taken from the Supreme Court decision.
"You can pay the claim or I will file a small claims case and then you will pay the claim, and my attorney fees and filing charges etc." (Most small claims courts do not require an attorney and pretty easy filing with minimal costs to file and have sheriff deliver claim to the shipper (UPS/FEDEX and 3rd party shipper etc.)
NOTE: Copy this statement and save it for later.
8. Depending on how you shipped it, if they deny the claim you can sue either the shipper or 3rd party in small claims court and win with above statement and copy of the US Supreme Court decision which can be downloaded. That makes your case simple normally as they cannot fight a supreme court decision. Just give the judge a copy of the decision to back up your claim.
9. Note also that 3rd party shippers often do not buy additional declared value from the shipper (UPS/FEDEX). They carry private insurance that makes filing a claim even harder. Then you are suing the shipping company, the 3rd party shipper and his insurance so you have 3 defendants.
Been there and done that.
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This is an awesome addition to the thread! Thank you. Something didn't smell right with Fed-x and UPS regarding insurance. They were way too nebulous on insurance.
Brians356
Gold $$ Contributor
I purchase the expandable boxes from FedEx for $8.00, and package the rifle in a soft case. Once that triangle is formed, you have a very strong container
I need to ship an XR-100 w/ thumbhole stock.
I see on Fedex' site these expandable boxes:
"Golf Club Tube" (50" x 9" x 9") looks like a triangle, may not be fat enough for a whole rifle w/ stock
$14.99
Telescoping Box (no size listed) for skis, fishing poles, etc. Looks rectangular cross section.
$12.99
If this box is rectangular (cross-section) do you collapse it into a triangle?
Brian
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Dusty Stevens
Shiner
No telling how many rifles ive shipped and received in a cheap hard gun case with the original cardboard box it came in turned inside out. The cases can be bought at walmart for like $14. Tell the sporting goods attendant to go in the back and get one thats still in the cardboard box
Brians356
Gold $$ Contributor
I found this case at Walmart for < $10:
https://www.walmart.com/ip/50-5inch-Rifle-Shotgun-Case/969413734
However, the local store doesn't offer the shipping box, they come to the store several bundled in a large box, which they discarded.
So I tried to buy one online from Walmart, and have it shipped to a local store for free pickup, but since several local stores already have them in stock, it won't let me. The only way to get an individual shipping box is to actually have it sent to my home for $5.99, bringing the total to $16.78. Plus, I would now have to ship the extra volume and weight of the plastic case, which is several extra pounds itself, and a lot wider than I need for a single rifle.For that much money, I have enough large boxes on hand to cut up and slap together my own triangular double-wrap of cardboard. I'll pay myself for an hour of creative activity.
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Dusty Stevens
Shiner
I found this case at Walmart for < $10:
https://www.walmart.com/ip/50-5inch-Rifle-Shotgun-Case/969413734
However, the local store doesn't offer the shipping box, they come to the store several bundled in a large box, which they discarded.
For that much money, I have enough large boxes on hand to cut up and slap together my own triangular double-wrap of cardboard. I'll pay myself for an hour of creative activity.
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Good plan. At least it hasnt been suggested to ship them like we do fishing rods- in sch80 pvc with the caps glued on!
Dusty, I've received a St Croix Legend Elite in a PVC tube with tire tracks on it that looked awfully similar to those on my mailman's truck. The rod survived though!
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
Exactly. I have a fetish for extreme custom one off rods and got one a couple years ago in sch 80 pvc with sch40 caps glued on. There was a hole in one of them that looked like a 22 hole. Stuck my finger in there and felt the broken end even though there was 6” of foam in the end for a place to saw. Showed it to the delivery guy and we started the claim for the shipper. Had it insured for $600 and he never got a dime. At least the builder made it right and i had another one in a few weeks while he waited on his money. Next one came sealed in a vacuum bag with foam injected around it. Figured it was my payback for having a shoddy mail man. I figure it was busted because it was a 10’ pvc pipe
I decided to ship my Tikka back to Beretta in the factory box. But of course, those boxes are only meant to be shipped on pallets with lots of other rifles, so I went overkill. Even the factory Styrofoam isn't sufficient. I used hand-carved rigid foam blocks to better secure the rifle. Then I wrapped the entire factory box with another layer of heavy-corrugated cardboard with zero space between the layers of cardboard and no additional packing material. No chance that thing was going to suffer damage unless it was run over by a truck.
Only problem is that sometimes delivery services screw up, and they make every effort to avoid taking responsibility. I once sent a package via UPS that contained a $1,000 400k-BTU burner in it's factory packaging. Those boxes were packed with the type of foam that is injected into the box and conform to the shape of parts. You could drop it from 20' on concrete and it would not be damaged. The client who received the package reported it damaged on delivery. UPS returned it to me, and the type of damage was obvious. There was a hole that was punched clear through the box in the exact shape and size of a forklift fork. I filed a claim with UPS, and they declared it was improperly packaged and would not admit fault. Lesson learned: If it is expensive, pay for the insurance because the carrier is a corporation.
Only problem is that sometimes delivery services screw up, and they make every effort to avoid taking responsibility. I once sent a package via UPS that contained a $1,000 400k-BTU burner in it's factory packaging. Those boxes were packed with the type of foam that is injected into the box and conform to the shape of parts. You could drop it from 20' on concrete and it would not be damaged. The client who received the package reported it damaged on delivery. UPS returned it to me, and the type of damage was obvious. There was a hole that was punched clear through the box in the exact shape and size of a forklift fork. I filed a claim with UPS, and they declared it was improperly packaged and would not admit fault. Lesson learned: If it is expensive, pay for the insurance because the carrier is a corporation.
Yes.
One thing to watch- last Christmas I sent both my kids care packages, with dried venison, bacon, jerky, summer sausage, and various other goodies. I packed them in coolers with ice packs, taped them shut, and the UPS Store had no issues with shipping them- for $240.00. When neither package showed up on the promised day (they were both a day late, so no biggie, except, $240). I dutifully filed my claim and got a response back from UPS (not the store) that my claim was denied because the packages were not completely enclosed by cardboard. I do a lot of water quality sampling, and the samples are always shipped to the lab in a taped cooler. Sometimes I'm shipping off twenty or thirty coolers a week that way. Never wrapped one in cardboard. I imagine they'd sing the same song on a damage claim.
Brians356
Gold $$ Contributor
It just occurred to me that there's really no reason not to remove the stock (from a bolt action sporter) and pack the action and stock side by side (suitably secured and padded of course ) in a shorter, fatter box. Thinking "outside the (long skinny) box" here. One benefit is it would be less obviously a rifle, and attract less attention.
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hogpatrol
Gold $$ Contributor
If it isn't too far, check with a UPS depot for shipping next time. I'd bet they are one third to one quarter the price a UPS store charges.
Your USPS route is somewhat flawed for 3 reasons.
1. Unlike other carriers it goes through many more stages and possabilities of getting screwed up.
2. The insurance is somewhat dubious...if you have a claim, you may not live long enough to collect IMHO.
3. The absolute BEST way to safely and economically send a gun of value is USPS registered/insured. While it is a pain because it requires brown paper wrap with brown tape, a. It requires a signature for EVERY hand that touches it throughout the shipping chain . b. It costs far less than other options to insure, mostly because of a.
Lastly if it comes down to properly transfering a decent sum of money, nothing beats a wire transfer.
1. Unlike other carriers it goes through many more stages and possabilities of getting screwed up.
2. The insurance is somewhat dubious...if you have a claim, you may not live long enough to collect IMHO.
3. The absolute BEST way to safely and economically send a gun of value is USPS registered/insured. While it is a pain because it requires brown paper wrap with brown tape, a. It requires a signature for EVERY hand that touches it throughout the shipping chain . b. It costs far less than other options to insure, mostly because of a.
Lastly if it comes down to properly transfering a decent sum of money, nothing beats a wire transfer.
Brians356
Gold $$ Contributor
I went to my local pawn shop (where they sell quite a few guns on Gunbroker.com) and the manager gave me a Uline rifle box (8" x 4" x 52") for no charge, although I offered to pay him $5 for it. I removed the thumb-hole stock from the XR-100 and bubble wrapped the barreled action and stock separately. Then I wrapped the barreled action in the piece of cardboard I cut off one end of the box, as by breaking down the rifle I now only needed 33" internal length. Here's the two main pieces ready to lay head-to-toe alongside each other inside the box:
Inside that cardboard wrapper are some small triangular cardboard spacers I made to keep the barrel from flopping around inside, and the wrapper is taped tight around the action. I will stuff a lot of wadded up newspaper between them, and around them, to keep them from flopping around inside the outer box.
Doing it this way, the shortened box no longer screams "Rifle!" to everyone who sees it, and it is inherently stiffer than the original long box. I really see no reason to ship a bolt-action rifle with the stock attached, unless it has been set up with methodically identified action screw torque values, or the stock is glued on.
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p-man
Gold $$ Contributor
A few points to clarify: as Dusty said, a great shipping box is the hard plastic guncase in the manufacturer's original cardboard box - if you ORDER it online and have it shipped to you, it will come in the manufacturer’s cardboard box - there's no need to turn it inside out, just use a black permanent marker to cover any package reference to gun, rifle, or firearm. Also a couple of layers of brown shipping tape covers well.
As to shipping restrictions by the USPS, most of the ‘requirements’ previously stated apply only to handguns and other concealable firearms and not to normal length rifles and shotguns (long guns). There are two references of federal law/code that stipulate to requirements & restriction concerning the mailing of firearms; the first is:
USPS C024 - Other Restricted or Nonmailable Matter. This is the section that pertains to restricted items including firemars. Sections 1.0 through 1.7 of CO24 are applicable to handguns and other concealable weapons, who can transport and ship them and other stuff as to licensing, regulatory and enforcement agencies, ad nauseum.
Section 2.0 pertains to antique firearms.
Section 3.0 pertains shotguns and rifles and I paraphrase: Unloaded rifles and shotguns are mailable, but mailers must comply with the Gun Control Act of 1968, Public Law 90-618, 18 USC 921, et seq., and 27 CFR 178, as well as state and local laws. The mailer may be required by the USPS to establish - by opening the parcel - or by written certification that (1) the firearm is unloaded and (2) that it not otherwise restricted (not a handgun or other concealable firearm). If you read USPS CO24 no where will you find a requirement that you must notify the USPS or postmaster when you are shipping a long gun.
Section 4.0 states: Postmasters are not authorized to give opinions on the legality of any shipment of rifles or shotguns. Contact the nearest office of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms for further advice.
The second reference, mentioned in Section 3.0 above, is GCA of 1968, associated other federal law, but especially 27 CFR 178, in subsection 31 below:
§ 178.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier. (a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped.
Again, to paraphrase: No one may ship to anyone else OTHER than a licensed importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector, any firearm without written notice to the carrier. In other words, if you are shipping to a FFL dealer, you do NOT need to notify anyone at the USPS.
As to what is and is not required under federal law, there remains a lot of confusion among firearm owners, common carriers such as USPS, FEDEX, etc. and also among law enforcement and regulatory agencies. Like all the other govt regulations, it was written by lawyers for lawyers - not written in common everyday language for us for whom it actually applies. For those who like reading govt legal speak, I've posted links to CO24 and US 27 CFR 178. (Enjoy). I guess you can always print them out and take them to the PO if you you're getting hassled.
I ship all long guns via USPS Priority Mail Insured and have not had any issues or losses. If you get an online USPS account and print your own labels, you do get a lower rate than when taking it to the post office counter, plus can schedule a pickup at no additional costs plus get tracking status notifications.
Hope this helps.
https://pe.usps.com/archive/html/dmmarchive20030810/C024.htm
https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/granule/CFR-2000-title27-vol1/CFR-2000-title27-vol1-part178
As to shipping restrictions by the USPS, most of the ‘requirements’ previously stated apply only to handguns and other concealable firearms and not to normal length rifles and shotguns (long guns). There are two references of federal law/code that stipulate to requirements & restriction concerning the mailing of firearms; the first is:
USPS C024 - Other Restricted or Nonmailable Matter. This is the section that pertains to restricted items including firemars. Sections 1.0 through 1.7 of CO24 are applicable to handguns and other concealable weapons, who can transport and ship them and other stuff as to licensing, regulatory and enforcement agencies, ad nauseum.
Section 2.0 pertains to antique firearms.
Section 3.0 pertains shotguns and rifles and I paraphrase: Unloaded rifles and shotguns are mailable, but mailers must comply with the Gun Control Act of 1968, Public Law 90-618, 18 USC 921, et seq., and 27 CFR 178, as well as state and local laws. The mailer may be required by the USPS to establish - by opening the parcel - or by written certification that (1) the firearm is unloaded and (2) that it not otherwise restricted (not a handgun or other concealable firearm). If you read USPS CO24 no where will you find a requirement that you must notify the USPS or postmaster when you are shipping a long gun.
Section 4.0 states: Postmasters are not authorized to give opinions on the legality of any shipment of rifles or shotguns. Contact the nearest office of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms for further advice.
The second reference, mentioned in Section 3.0 above, is GCA of 1968, associated other federal law, but especially 27 CFR 178, in subsection 31 below:
§ 178.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier. (a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped.
Again, to paraphrase: No one may ship to anyone else OTHER than a licensed importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector, any firearm without written notice to the carrier. In other words, if you are shipping to a FFL dealer, you do NOT need to notify anyone at the USPS.
As to what is and is not required under federal law, there remains a lot of confusion among firearm owners, common carriers such as USPS, FEDEX, etc. and also among law enforcement and regulatory agencies. Like all the other govt regulations, it was written by lawyers for lawyers - not written in common everyday language for us for whom it actually applies. For those who like reading govt legal speak, I've posted links to CO24 and US 27 CFR 178. (Enjoy). I guess you can always print them out and take them to the PO if you you're getting hassled.
I ship all long guns via USPS Priority Mail Insured and have not had any issues or losses. If you get an online USPS account and print your own labels, you do get a lower rate than when taking it to the post office counter, plus can schedule a pickup at no additional costs plus get tracking status notifications.
Hope this helps.
https://pe.usps.com/archive/html/dmmarchive20030810/C024.htm
https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/granule/CFR-2000-title27-vol1/CFR-2000-title27-vol1-part178
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