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here kity kitty......

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Has cat shooter gone off to dispatch another kitty and not returned? There were a few posts that i thought were ripe and ready for a few encouraging and enlightning words of wisdom that could have best been typed by none other.......

RESPONSE By MODERATOR to CATSHOOTER COMMENTS:

First, I've placed this in the first post so that it's easily visible to all reading the thread, but it's not directed to MPryne's post, but to Catshooters post.

My point in responding is to make clear that there was no conspiracy to silence Catshooter. Far from it. But the simple reality was that, in a FEW situations his posts were not only not helpful but had the potential to steer readers in the WRONG direction.

1) I value Catshooter's participation in this Forum, for the most part. There is no effort to single anybody out.

2) Trust me, I do NOT want to delete posts or edit posts. In an ideal world I would not have to delete ANY post. I have much too much to do otherwise running this site.

3) The reasons posts are deleted or threads locked are very simple--if there is insulting language, or if the information posted is incorrect, is potentially dangerous, or if it contradicts standard industry safety procedures. I have also "truncated threads" which went off into side-subjects that could cause confusion.

Now, as to Catshooter...

A. He claims: "Over time, about 70% of my technical posts have been deleted"

Flat out WRONG. This is utterly without basis in fact. Prove it for yourself.

If you do a member search on the Forum you will find that CatShooter has 880 posts. You will find 7 index pages with hundreds of threads with his posts.

OK, so it turns out Catshooter's posts have NOT been deleted en masse. What else is he confused about?

B. Item 1 -- the use of lubricant while fire-forming. First the stated problem was NOT case separation, but was an inconsistent ignition problem. Catshooter's "information" was deleted because 1) it was inconsistent with general reloading safety procedures that dictate NOT using lubricated cases or "wet chambers". CatShooter can say what he wants, but I will NOT have posts that can confuse novice reloaders and have them adopt procedures which run directly contrary to rifle- and powder-makers' standard safety recommendations.

In addition, I polled multiple, highly respected gunsmiths on this specific issue, as well as technicians at Alliant/CCI. All these persons, to a man, said that the use of lubricated cases, in this particular situation, was 100% wrong, and could actually make the situation worse--namely the issue of inconsistent ignition.

[Other posters DID understand the actual problem,inconsistent ignition) and provided DIFFERENT advice which in fact solved the posters' problem--without running lubed cases in a "wet chamber".]

Catshooter makes this a cornerstone of his complaint, yet he doesn't even get the specifics of the issue correct. And in fact that is one reason why his orginal advice was simply not helpful, and was potentially harmful.

There is a reason ammo and rifle manufacturers emphatically recommend against firing "wet" or lubricated cases or firing rounds in "wet" chambers.

CatShooter Writes: "It does NOT make any difference whether the case is dry or wet with oil".

Tell that to SAAMI... That advice is contrary to standard, universal, industry safety recommendations.

B) The Firing Pin Thread

The issue raised by the original poster was "What is the Firing pin tip protrusion on a Remington 700 bolt?" Catshooter said his info on firing pin protrustion "was all deleted". Not true. His first two posts stating generally accepted lengths are still there--for all to read. Subsequent Catshooter's posts in that recent thread,as well as others' posts) were deleted, and the thread was locked.

Catshooter also claims he had to correct Donovan's assertion that protrusion was .020". This is also false. Donovan said: "Protrusion should be about 0.055",.040 to .060 acceptable)", and "Firing-pin penetration, should be about 0.020".

There was an exchange of comments and Boyd Allen explained that firing pin penetration is not limited by the shoulder: "Actually, when firing a live round, the primer stops the forward motion of the firing pin, not the shoulder in front of the firing pin spring. This is why discussions of excess protrusion causing primer piercing are off base. All excess protrusion does is lessen effective firing pin fall, and slightly reduce the energy imparted to the primer. As an aside, firing pin protrusion is adjustable on Savages like the 110 etc., and Bob Greenleaf, retired Savage engineer, usually sets them at .035."

Catshooter challenged Allen and also disputed Donovan.

CatShooter wrote "Boyd gets no cigar. Do what I described and you will see that Boyds explanation is not true. He is entitled to his opinion, but when you test it, it is not true."

Other authoritative posts established that CatShooter's view was misinformed, i.e. he was plain wrong. Jim Borden said flat out: "Boyd is correct", namely that firing pin travel was NOT limited by the shoulder.

CatShooter then made a number of long posts which really had nothing to do with the primary issue. At best they created confusion and they were not responsive to the point of the thread. But most importantly, Catshooter was simply wrong on the basic technical issue,protrusion vs. penetration) and that's why his further posts were deleted.

So...in this thread, Catshooter's initial posts,with correct information) were left intact, whereas his later posts,with some incorrect information) were deleted. It's as simple as that.

---

Folks, often times Catshooter has very useful and often very illuminating things to say.

Other times his posts have been off-point or technically wrong. On a FEW occasions his posts have been deleted because what he wrote either a) provided the WRONG solution to a question, b) really obscured the real issue in question, and only caused confusion, or c) could cause safety issues.

---

My key responsibility in this Forum is to promote safe firearms use. Whenever a thread creates confusion that could lead to a safety issue or where posts are made which contravene important, basic safety principles, they will be deleted.

As noted above, CatShooter has claimed I've deleted 70% of his posts. That's absolutely false.

CatShooter asserts "I asked the Mod why my stuff was deleted - I mean it was a lot of work, a lot of good, solid information, and the only negative remark I said was "Bad Donovan",which was mild, considering the circumstances, and how much of my time he wasted).

... and he basically said it's his sandbox and that's the way it is."

Again, this is a distortion. What I told him is that I do not have the time to police every thread and to try to modify and edit individual posts. I told him that I have to make quick judgment calls about posts/threads that contain potentially inaccurate, or confusing advice. In fact, I've deleted fewer than a dozen threads this year and most of them had nothing to do with CatShooter. I also told Catshooter that he was welcome to submit technical items to the Bulletin and for other longer technical articles.

----

What it really comes down to is this.

1. Yes, a few of Catshooter's technical posts have been deleted. That was done because I made a determination that the information he wrote was either technically incorrect, or inconsistent with generally accepted safety principles, or that his commentary simply missed the point of the question and created confusion.

He can believe I erred in deleting certain posts, but I did what I thought I had to do. Unlike Catshooter, I will admit that I can make mistakes. But to keep this Forum running I have to make judgments. Trust me I don't make the decision to kill/lock a thread lightly.

2. I explained to CatShooter that the reason I have to act swiftly on threads is that I DO NOT have the time to edit and tweak individual posts. Forum members have overwhelmingly told me that if there is something "sour" in a thread, just close it and move on -- so I can accomplish the more important tasks for this site. The reality is that I was taken away from working on the latest Gun of the Week story to deal with Catshooter's accusations and "Grand Exit". Thanks to him all of you won't have a new feature story to read tomorrow morning.

3. CatShooter is a very smart guy, but on a few occasions he wrote things that were NOT correct and NOT helpful and accordingly posts were deleted or the thread locked.

4. The claim that I have deleted hundreds of irreplaceable nuggets of Catshooter's technical wisdom is a LIE. Trust me, I would rather not have to edit/modify/delete any post by ANY member. I have made the decision that a few of Catshooters' posts were problematical, and I stand by those decisions.

There has been no effort to silence "divergent points of view". Bottom line, Mr. Catshooter cannot admit that on a few occasions he missed the point or wrote something that was simply bad advice.

It is ironic that Catshooter was often the first to aggressively jump down the throat of another forum member whose opinion he,Catshooter) believed to be incorrect. When it comes to criticism, Catshooter loves to dish it out, but he can't take it -- he couldn't accept the notion that sometimes his views were NOT 100% correct, or were completely off-point, or were contrary to important basic safety principles, or created more problems than solutions.

To be honest, I have great respect for Catshooter's smarts and his experience in the optics field. I have actually been very reluctant to edit or delete his comments because of those credentials. But that doesn't mean that Catshooter,or anyone else) always gets things 100% right, or that he always posts in a manner that is on-point, constructive, and helpful.

We all have egos, but most Forum members do not suffer from the notion that they are infallible or that their store of knowledge is ALWAYS superior to anyone else. Most of us can accept the fact that, now and then, a post can be problematical even if it has some good aspects to it. With Catshooter, I think it's black and white. He strongly believes he's always right. Hence if one of his posts gets deleted he believes a great injustice has been done.

The reality is I bent over backward to let him have his say on this Forum, and when in the rare instance I deleted one of his posts it was because that particular post really did more harm than good, or simply served to confuse the situation and undermine other members' posts which were actually MORE helpful and more technically correct,in terms of the actual issue being discussed).

---

My final word is that moderating a Forum, any Forum, is a tough job. Long hours, no pay, and you have to keep thousands of people happy while dealing with some pretty strong egos. And in the firearms arena, add the responsibility of trying to keep people from blowing themselves up. Bottom line is I believe Catshooter was treated MORE than fairly, and I deleted posts when I felt it was in the best interests of the Forum and the site.

Trust me, I would love to never have to delete a post or close a thread. But I think we all know how quickly things could get ugly if this forum became a free-for-all.
 
WHERE IS MY BUDDY??????

Going to drive to Trinidad tomorrow to attend a NRA Class next week and will be building a rifle. Need to discuss it with him before I thread the tube!!!:,


Here Kitty Kitty Kitty ---- I have some Catnip!!!!:thumb:
 
But Guys, you got to give it to him, he has a lot of knowledge in that gord of his. You simply cannot have been involved with all the projects and operations that he has been devoted to and experimented with and not be pretty dog gone smart. I will admit he has his ways of getting his point across but he really is a fine member and I enjoy reading anything he writes.


Where you at Cat? We got a box of Kimbles and Bits for you and Slow Poke done washed your bowl too.

You did didn't you, Slow Poke?
 
I'm went...

Lets say that Paul,the moderator) and I have a wide difference of opinion on what is a deletable post. The difference is about as wide as the Grand Canyon :)

I can accept that some of my earlier post were deleted because I had the audacity to "call a spade a spade",and call an asshole, an asshole)...
... so I took the local 12 step program on "Couth", and promised myself that I would stick to the facts and "Da' trut", no matter how painful they were, but try to refrain calling an asshole, an asshole,it is really difficult sometimes!! :) ).

But my posts kept being deleted.

There was a thread some time ago, where someone was having problems with head separations in fire forming cases, so I gave him an old trick,older than I am... which is "dirt"!!), about wiping the case with a very light oil, like G-96,cuz it smells so good) or even plain kerosene,which smells BAD).

On firing, the case slides back to the bolt, fills the chamber to whatever variation you are making, and there is absolutely NO case stretch... the post was deleted within a few hours.

So I asked the "Mod" why it was deleted, and he said he talked to a gunsmith friend, and a 1,000 yd shooter, and they said it was bad, so he deleted it. He never even asked me about it.

Well... I don't know what the hell a 1,000 yd shooter knows about it - I don't care if he shoots 1,000 yd benchrest OFF HAND... AND WINS - that has absolutely nothing to do with metallurgy.

And gunsmiths... don't get me started - I was one, so I have the right to say that.

When I was a grasshopper gunsmith, the limited metallurgy I got had nothing to do with this subject - I got my real metallurgy learning later.

Well.. aside from the fact that I was a working,6 days a week :, ) gunsmith in my "ute" for 7 friggin' years, I am also an ed-ju-macated en-ga-neer, with some fairly good knowledge of metallurgy, and was a research director at Columbia University for four years from 1969 to 1973, and a consultant in the Columbia University Research "High Energy Suite" for two more years where we studied the ballistics of tiny particles in air and Helium,you wouldn't believe how fast you have to drive a projectile in helium to get a conic shockwave section on a shadow graph!!).

But obviously none of that counts - the "Mods" gunsmith knows more about it - I don't think so.

See, here's the thing.

We all,and I do mean WE ALL) know that cases stretch in front of the web if there's any headspace. What most shooters don't know, is that there are two kinds of "headspace"... the SAAMI headspace, and the "working" headspace.

The SAAMI headspace is the measurement to a given diameter on the chamber/case so that different factories can make chambers and ammo that fits each other,kinda~sorta).

The "working headspace" is the stuff that guys who are using bump dies are trying to manage, on already fired cases.

SAAMI allows a variation in this measurement, because no one can make chambers and cartridge cases to a tolerance of 0.00000001"

With center fire cartridges, the tolerance is typically X.xxx" +0.007" on chambers and X.xxx -0.007" on cases. So if you have a max chamber and a min case, they are both "OK", and the gun doesn't have "headspace",according to the local pipe fitter "aka gunsmith" who's specialty is mounting scopes before hunting season)...
... but you will have 14 thou of working headspace... the real, measurable space between the head of the case and the bolt face, when you are ready to shoot!,which I'll get back to later).

Now - here's the other thing. This guy named John Bell Blish,anyone recognize the name? I didn't think so)... he is the discoverer of the "Blish effect"... he discovered that copper and bronze, when forced against iron or steel under a fair amount of pressure, will stick to the steel,or iron) - en-ga-neers call it, "Stickshon" cuz it sticks,duh).

When the pressure then goes below a certain threshold, the copper/bronze lets loose... it's really cool :)

He designed several artillery pieces using this effect, and the first Thompson Submachine guns used his "Blish block".

This same effect is responsible for case stretching - when the pin falls, and the primer fires, the case is forced forwards with a lot of force,~700 pounds, according to Richard Diaz of Remington's research laboratories in Georgia).

The primer is then protruding out of the case by the amount of the "working headspace" that you had, and it is holding the case forwards. Now the powder burns and the the pressure builds up, and the case walls STICK to the chamber.

But the pressure keeps building up more and more, and the case head is some 14 thou AWAY from the bolt face. At some point, the brass in front of the case web gives away, and it's like a micro-avalanche... the metal crystals start to slide across each other, first a few, then wham, they all start sliding and the case head goes back until it hits the bolt face!!!

Now the case is thin in front of the web, cuz it stretched, and the metal for the stretch had to come from somewhere - it is so thin that you can feel the weak place with a bent paper clip... but it is also permanently weakened and will always be on the verge of coming apart.

Some people talk about "Bolt thrust"... that is a fairly recent term in the shooting lexicon - I remember when it first arrived - there is no such thing.

Thrust is a linear force generated by some type of "engine"... springs develop thrust - propellers develop thrust - car engines do not develop thrust, but when you run them through differentials, and into tyres, the tyres develop thrust - thrust is linear... force in a straight line

In a gun, it's the case that develops "thrust" - backwards, towards the bolt face.

Now, here's the thing - whether you like it or nor, the back of a 308 case is gonna whack the bolt face with a force of ~3,500 pounds,this is NOT PSI, but real pounds - like 3/4's of a pickup truck, falling on your bolt face).

There is NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO STOP CASE THRUST ON THE BOLT FACE - If you live in Rio Linda, read that about 12 times.

It does NOT make any difference whether the case is dry or wet with oil - the case is gonna hit the bolt face with 3,500 pounds - if the case is dry, it's stickshon will hold it is place for a bunch of microseconds, until the brass crystals start to slip, but then it will whack the bolt face with the same force anyway.

Now... if the case is dry - the head will be held off of the bolt until the pressure builds up to the breaking point, and then the release will be quick,in ballistic time frames) and it will let go and really whack the bolt - if the case is wet, it will immediately start sliding back as pressure builds up, so the case head will actually hit the bolt LESS hard when wet, then when dry - those of you that slept through eleventh grade science might not get this, but there should be some of you out there that are saying "Well, I'll be a sonovabitch - damn, that's right!!"

So... if the case is wet, it will not stretch first... it will gradually slide back,gradually in ballistic time frame) - so the newly formed case has no stretch, and is a perfect fit to the new chamber. :) :)

Martha Stewart would say, "... and that's a good thing"

Gunsmiths that don't understand this need to try reading a few books on metallurgy once in a while.

Over the past year, "Da' Mod" deleted all of this information... twice :,

---

In the Firing pin thread, a guy asked what the firing pin protrusion should be - it is generally accepted to be 0.055 +/- ~0.005.

Ol' Donovan said it was 20 thou. Now... if you understood the above about the min case and the max chamber... if you have a min case and a max chamber,all within SAAMI spec), that 20 thou protrusion would leave you with 6 thou of primer hit :,

The damn cup on the primer is 25 thou thick!!!

Now... if you can't picture 6 thou in your mind - go get your nifty little dial caliper and open it until the little pointer points to 6 on the dial.

Now look through the space between the faces. THAT is 6 thou - now get a fired 308,or other such case) and look at the dent in the primer... compare the two and write a two page report on what you see - Donovan was making it all up.

Then he said the the pin spring was "progressive"... after two days of this garbage, it turns out he doesn't know what a progressive spring is, or what it does, or why they are used,and not used)... it was all hot air.

But I did Donovan the politeness of following his request that I "try" something that will prove him right. So I spend a few hours popping primers on empty cases, and measuring primer dents, firing pin protrusion, and firing pin strokes, and on and on... and I posted it.

It was good, solid information that had a lot of value to many shooters, not just the guy that asked the question...

... and it was all deleted.

Well, I shouldn't say "all" cuz Donovan's BS was NOT deleted... it is still there to mislead people for generations,and eons) to come.

I asked the Mod why my stuff was deleted - I mean it was a lot of work, a lot of good, solid information, and the only negative remark I said was "Bad Donovan",which was mild, considering the circumstances, and how much of my time he wasted).

... and he basically said it's his sandbox and that's the way it is.

Over time, about 70% of my technical posts have been deleted :,

So I'm not waisting my time anymore, digging up old notes and making measurements, and pouring through files, just to have it deleted a day later.

And just when me and "SlowPokie" were starting to get along too :, :,

You guys be good.

P.S... Mike, I don't know where the grownups have gone... I'll let you know when I find them :)

P.P.S...

Where's the chicken?

Chicken, it's what's for dinner.

It all tastes like chicken in the end ;) ;) ;)


.
 
mpryne said:
Has cat shooter gone off to dispatch another kitty and not returned? There were a few posts that i thought were ripe and ready for a few encouraging and enlightning words of wisdom that could have best been typed by none other.......

Maybe he will tell us where he is frequenting once he gets settled in. Sure hope so. Sure seems like a lot of good knowledge lost or refused should I say.
 
That's a shame, I would say CatShooter adds more to this forum than any other in attendance. Some people prefer to live in ignorance and that is also a shame.

I don't blame you for not spending hours of your time giving REAL answers to questions when they just get deleted. Time is money and you have been donating much of your time,obviously in vain). I have often wondered how long you spent on some of your technical posts and its just wrong for them to be deleted.
 
Now I feel better:D ... I just reasd the post from Cat Shooter...... I guess I don't know what to say..... There is probably more technical information and theory that can be gleamed from that post than many of the others combined.... and it wasn't even a technical post.... and above that there was work put into the question that another had asked..... now even if you don't agree, you have to be impressed about the passion for fact vs. fiction, the lack of I THINK THIS MAY BE WHAT OR COULD BE GOING ON thoughts that get turned into mysterious unsubstantiated lore..... I think i just confused myself on that one.........,if you understand what i was trying to say please explain it to me so that i do too):sneaky:... well alas... I guess there is one more thing that i would like to say and then i will go back to quietly checking in once a day in the background and trying to learn as much as i can about a topic that i enjoy.. Please Do not be offended by the following statement......:nono: as a member of the community that the general public calls to solve all manner of problems b/c they can't or won't do it themselves maybe i am not easily offended, but i have offended many nore people than i can remember and yes some of them on purpose... I have pointed guns at others and had them pointed at me... i have kicked in doors and been in high speed pursuits, fist fights and a littany of other situations that i believe would or could have been avoided if people acted like grownups instead of,insert your choice of explicitive word,s) here ) as grownups you do not always agree and sometimes you say things b/c they are true but no one wants to hear them but they are true none the less..
Good luck cat shooter and if you find that you want to come back i will gladly take the, so called) abuse so that others won't be offended into learning anything that may actually be useful.
 
This is really a bad thing to have happen.

Cat shooter was a little abrasive at times but had some of the best technical information I have ever seen on any forum.

I don't own the forum but it would seem a lot more reasonable to talk to him and tell him that it is unacceptable to use foul language on this forum. Believe it or not there are kids reading and participating in the discussions.

To be without Cat Shooter because someone got their feelings hurt just doesn't seem right.

I agree we don't need the bickering that happens but when ideas are exchanged in a heated discussion but that will happen.

Normally when someone is an engineering type person, don't take this wrong ) their brain works differently than non engineers. I have a guy that works for me that my customers don't understand sometimes. He has problems with people skills but is one of the most brilliant technical minds I know.

Every hear the saying "it takes all types to make the world go round". Why are we limiting the knowledge on the Forum when it takes all types to make the forum work.

If everyone were like me there would be lots of hunting information but no competition info. I have never been in a rifle competition but really like to read the information they contribute.

So what I am say in the nutshell is we need the diverse knowledge to make the forum productive for everyone and to limit people like Cat Shooter from wanting to contribute is a mistake. How else will we learn of spin drift and other such interesting topics.

Just my two cents.
Steve
 
I'm basically new to this form I've been reading it for about three years now and signed up around two years ago so that I could ask questions. I'm not very knowledgeable and to tell the truth I was reluctant to ask questions for the fear of sounding dumb and not wanting to get smacked down for asking something that the majority of the folks on this forum already know. But I found there is a wealth of usable knowledge to be gained here. And being I've never been known for being very thin skinned I decided to ask questions and even throw in my two cent worth from time to time but only on subjects that I had personal experience with.

I do believe there is no need to belittle people on this form. But at the same time it should be obvious this forum needs knowledgeable posters and I for one will miss the knowledge and detailed information that catshooter brought to this form.
SO MANY CATS SO FEW RECIPES - SURE HOPE THE KITTY KITTY COMES HOME

RJ
 
Losing Catshooter is only second to losing the site as far as good solid information is concerned. He worked really hard to try and find a way to help when he saw something that he knew he could help out with. I agree with GUNAMONTH. He may be gone but will never be forgotten. Heck he was the life of the party. How you gonna forget him?
 
My point in responding is to make clear that there was no conspiracy to silence Catshooter. Far from it. But the simple reality was that, in a FEW situations his posts were not only not helpful but had the potential to steer readers in the WRONG direction.

1) I value Catshooter's participation in this Forum, for the most part. There is no effort to single anybody out.

2) Trust me, I do NOT want to delete posts or edit posts. In an ideal world I would not have to delete ANY post. I have much too much to do otherwise running this site.

3) The reasons posts are deleted or threads locked are very simple--if there is insulting language, or if the information posted is incorrect, is potentially dangerous, or if it contradicts standard industry safety procedures. I have also "truncated threads" which went off into side-subjects that could cause confusion.

Now, as to Catshooter...

A. He claims: "Over time, about 70% of my technical posts have been deleted"

Flat out WRONG. This is utterly without basis in fact. Prove it for yourself.

If you do a member search on the Forum you will find that CatShooter has 880 posts. You will find 7 index pages with hundreds of threads with his posts.

OK, so it turns out Catshooter's posts have NOT been deleted en masse. What else is he confused about?

B. Item 1 -- the use of lubricant while fire-forming. First the stated problem was NOT case separation, but was an inconsistent ignition problem,"no bang"). Catshooter's "information" was deleted because 1) it was inconsistent with general reloading safety procedures that dictate NOT using lubricated cases or "wet chambers" and 2) his proposed solution would make the poor ignition problem worse. CatShooter can say what he wants, but I will NOT have posts that can confuse novice reloaders and have them adopt procedures which run directly contrary to rifle- and powder-makers' standard safety recommendations.

In addition, I polled multiple, highly respected gunsmiths on this specific issue, as well as technicians at Alliant/CCI. All these persons, to a man, said that the use of lubricated cases, in this particular situation, was 100% wrong, and could actually make the situation worse--namely the issue of inconsistent ignition.

[Other posters DID understand the actual problem,inconsistent ignition) and provided DIFFERENT advice which in fact solved the posters' problem--without running lubed cases in a "wet chamber".]

Catshooter makes this a cornerstone of his complaint, yet he doesn't even get the specifics of the issue correct. And in fact that is one reason why his orginal advice was simply not helpful, and was potentially harmful.

There is a reason ammo and rifle manufacturers emphatically recommend against firing "wet" or lubricated cases or firing rounds in "wet" chambers.

CatShooter Writes: "It does NOT make any difference whether the case is dry or wet with oil".

Tell that to SAAMI... That advice is contrary to standard, universal, industry safety recommendations.

B) The Firing Pin Thread

The issue raised by the original poster was "What is the Firing pin tip protrusion on a Remington 700 bolt?" Catshooter said his info on firing pin protrustion "was all deleted". Not true. His first two posts stating generally accepted lengths are still there--for all to read. Subsequent Catshooter's posts in that recent thread,as well as others' posts) were deleted, and the thread was locked.

Catshooter also claims he had to correct Donovan's assertion that protrusion was .020". This is also false. Donovan said: "Protrusion should be about 0.055",.040 to .060 acceptable)", and "Firing-pin penetration, should be about 0.020".

There was an exchange of comments and Boyd Allen explained that firing pin penetration is not limited by the shoulder: "Actually, when firing a live round, the primer stops the forward motion of the firing pin, not the shoulder in front of the firing pin spring. This is why discussions of excess protrusion causing primer piercing are off base. All excess protrusion does is lessen effective firing pin fall, and slightly reduce the energy imparted to the primer. As an aside, firing pin protrusion is adjustable on Savages like the 110 etc., and Bob Greenleaf, retired Savage engineer, usually sets them at .035."

Catshooter challenged Allen and also disputed Donovan.

CatShooter wrote "Boyd gets no cigar. Do what I described and you will see that Boyds explanation is not true. He is entitled to his opinion, but when you test it, it is not true."

Other authoritative posts established that CatShooter's view was misinformed, i.e. he was plain wrong. Jim Borden said flat out: "Boyd is correct", namely that firing pin travel was NOT limited by the shoulder. BillPA also confirmed what Boyd said and confirmed that firing pin penetration,as opposed to protrusion) will be in the .020-.025" range, as Donovan said. BillPA wrote: "Unfortunately or fortunately as the case my be, I agree with Boyd. You, Me, or anyone else will never ever impact a primer deeper than .020-.025" short of using a center punch and a big hammer. Generally they run between .018"-.022"....measured."

CatShooter then made a number of long posts which really had nothing to do with the primary issue. At best they created confusion and they were not responsive to the point of the thread. But most importantly, Catshooter was simply wrong on the basic technical issue,protrusion vs. penetration) and that's why his further posts were deleted.

So...in this thread, Catshooter's initial posts,with correct information) were left intact, whereas his later posts,with incorrect information) were deleted. It's as simple as that. Catshooter's latter posts were deleted because a) the basic question had been answered; and b) Catshooter's lengthy posts only created confusion.

---

Folks, often times Catshooter has very useful and often very illuminating things to say.

Other times his posts have been off-point or technically wrong. On a FEW occasions his posts have been deleted because what he wrote either a) provided the WRONG solution to a question, b) really obscured the real issue in question, and only caused confusion, or c) could cause safety issues.

---

My key responsibility in this Forum is to promote safe firearms use. Whenever a thread creates confusion that could lead to a safety issue or where posts are made which contravene important, basic safety principles, they will be deleted.

As noted above, CatShooter has claimed I've deleted 70% of his posts. That's absolutely false.

CatShooter asserts "I asked the Mod why my stuff was deleted - I mean it was a lot of work, a lot of good, solid information, and the only negative remark I said was "Bad Donovan",which was mild, considering the circumstances, and how much of my time he wasted).

... and he basically said it's his sandbox and that's the way it is."

Again, this is a distortion. What I told him is that I do not have the time to police every thread and to try to modify and edit individual posts. I told him that I have to make quick judgment calls about posts/threads that contain potentially inaccurate, or confusing advice. In fact, I've deleted fewer than a dozen threads this year and most of them had nothing to do with CatShooter. I also told Catshooter that he was welcome to submit technical items to the Bulletin and for other longer technical articles.

----

What it really comes down to is this.

1. Yes, a few of Catshooter's technical posts have been deleted. That was done because I made a determination that the information he wrote was either technically incorrect, or inconsistent with generally accepted safety principles, or that his commentary simply missed the point of the question and created confusion.

He can believe I erred in deleting certain posts, but I did what I thought I had to do. Unlike Catshooter, I will admit that I can make mistakes. But to keep this Forum running I have to make judgments. Trust me I don't make the decision to kill/lock a thread lightly.

2. I explained to CatShooter that the reason I have to act swiftly on threads is that I DO NOT have the time to edit and tweak individual posts. Forum members have overwhelmingly told me that if there is something "sour" in a thread, just close it and move on -- so I can accomplish the more important tasks for this site. The reality is that I was taken away from working on the latest Gun of the Week story to deal with Catshooter's accusations and "Grand Exit". Thanks to him all of you won't have a new feature story to read tomorrow morning.

3. CatShooter is a very smart guy, but on a few occasions he wrote things that were NOT correct and NOT helpful and accordingly posts were deleted or the thread locked.

4. The claim that I have deleted hundreds of irreplaceable nuggets of Catshooter's technical wisdom is a LIE. Trust me, I would rather not have to edit/modify/delete any post by ANY member. I have made the decision that a few of Catshooters' posts were problematical, and I stand by those decisions.

There has been no effort to silence "divergent points of view". Bottom line, Mr. Catshooter cannot admit that on a few occasions he missed the point or wrote something that was simply bad advice.

It is ironic that Catshooter was often the first to aggressively jump down the throat of another forum member whose opinion he,Catshooter) believed to be incorrect. When it comes to criticism, Catshooter loves to dish it out, but he can't take it -- he couldn't accept the notion that sometimes his views were NOT 100% correct, or were completely off-point, or were contrary to important basic safety principles, or created more problems than solutions.

To be honest, I have great respect for Catshooter's smarts and his experience in the optics field. I have actually been very reluctant to edit or delete his comments because of those credentials. But that doesn't mean that Catshooter,or anyone else) always gets things 100% right, or that he always posts in a manner that is on-point, constructive, and helpful.

We all have egos, but most Forum members do not suffer from the notion that they are infallible or that their store of knowledge is ALWAYS superior to anyone else. Most of us can accept the fact that, now and then, a post can be problematical even if it has some good aspects to it. With Catshooter, I think it's black and white. He strongly believes he's always right. Hence if one of his posts gets deleted he believes a great injustice has been done.

The reality is I bent over backward to let him have his say on this Forum, and when in the rare instance I deleted one of his posts it was because that particular post really did more harm than good, or simply served to confuse the situation and undermine other members' posts which were actually MORE helpful and more technically correct,in terms of the actual issue being discussed).

---

My final word is that moderating a Forum, any Forum, is a tough job. Long hours, no pay, and you have to keep thousands of people happy while dealing with some pretty strong egos. And in the firearms arena, add the responsibility of trying to keep people from blowing themselves up. Bottom line is I believe Catshooter was treated MORE than fairly, and I deleted posts when I felt it was in the best interests of the Forum and the site.

Trust me, I would love to never have to delete a post or close a thread. But I think we all know how quickly things could get ugly if this forum became a free-for-all.
 
I'm glad the catshooter is gone.

Basically, I agree with all of the moderators reasons but I would like to point out one thing in particular.

Many of the friends of catshooter that we've been hearing from respect his habit of being blunt and abrasive, etc. "Sometimes the truth hurts" is a common phrase. That's fine, I don't have a problem with that. But don't make the mistake of thinking that every insulting comment is true just because it's insulting!

I know of several false statements made by catshooter which he rigorously defended, sounds like there have been many more such false statements. Regarding one person as an infallible expert in all subjects is a mistake, potentially a dangerous mistake.

I'm pretty sure if he starts posting on a different forum, he'll meet the same end, probably in much shorter order.

Now that he's gone, I'll be more likely to read and contribute to the technical posts. I've avoided posts in the past because I didn't want to get into a urinary jousting contest with him, I know others share this view as well. It's not that I'm "sensitive" and don't want my feelings hurt, or that I'm afraid of him calling me out. It's just a waste of time to debate a point with someone when they think they're always right. I'm always interested in the truth. I've publicly conceded many points, and admitted I was wrong when shown sufficient evidence that contradicted my beliefs. That's how learning happens, and I'm grateful to the people that have helped me along. People like catshooter hinder this process because they're not interested in the truth, or learning, it's about ego. Now that he's gone, I think we'll have a much easier time getting to the truth of matters.

-Bryan
 
Mr Moderator, Deleting Catshooter's or anybody's post that endangers new handloader's life is acceptable and should be done.
But, I have read post on this web-site that is far more potientially hazardous to the safety of a new handloader than anything Catshooter has ever written and you did absolutely nothing about them. NO DELETION. An example: one forum member strongly argued with me that a reloading manual was nonsense and that he had never looked inside of one and further that a manual had no place with the shooting community. Nothing can be further from the truth. Why did you allow that post to go on. There should be no double standards and in my opinion you have been selective in deleting Catshooter's post. Bill
 
Gunamonth, I agree man. Let the elite group figure it out. Catshooter has forgottem more than most of them will ever learn. Bill
 
Bill,
We often have hundreds of new posts every day. I do not have the time to view more than a handful of the posts on a daily basis. Unless somebody brings a bad post to my attention, chances are I don't even know it exists.

You may think I've been targeting CatShooter. The reality is I've tried extra hard NOT to delete what he's written because occasionally he does produce a gem.

We have some 5400 members in the Forum. The reality is that there are only 3 or 4 regular posters who have created ongoing problems in the past year, and whose posts have generated multiple complaints. Catshooter was one of them.

- - -
One other thing about deleting posts--

For some time I tried to "micro-manage" problem threads. This involved reading the entire thread,often multiple times), then trying to edit individual posts to remove insulting langauge or fact errors, while leaving the rest of the post untouched. This proved completely impractical.

Right now out of a need for efficiency, sometimes I'll just have to delete a whole thread rather than try to tinker with it--there is just no time for that. Unfortunately, when a whole thread is deleted some good posts are eliminated along with the bad. That's unfortunate, but it's a reality.

I did notice that when bingo, whole threads started vanishing when posters went "over the line", that the conduct on the board started improving immediately.
 
Moderator said:
Bill,
We often have hundreds of new posts every day. I do not have the time to view more than a handful of the posts on a daily basis. Unless somebody brings a bad post to my attention, chances are I don't even know it exists.

You may think I've been targeting CatShooter. The reality is I've tried extra hard NOT to delete what he's written because occasionally he does produce a gem.

We have some 5400 members in the Forum. The reality is that there are only 3 or 4 regular posters who have created ongoing problems in the past year, and whose posts have generated multiple complaints. Catshooter was one of them.

From a safety stand point it is still unfair to allow those rediculous post to remain on the site. Complaints has nothing to do with the integrity of the post, SIR. Bill
 
blacknwhite said:
That's a shame, I would say CatShooter adds more to this forum than any other in attendance.

I don't post here often but am a daily lurker. I second blacknwhite's statement.

-John
 
billmo said:
Moderator said:
Bill,
We often have hundreds of new posts every day. I do not have the time to view more than a handful of the posts on a daily basis. Unless somebody brings a bad post to my attention, chances are I don't even know it exists.

You may think I've been targeting CatShooter. The reality is I've tried extra hard NOT to delete what he's written because occasionally he does produce a gem.

We have some 5400 members in the Forum. The reality is that there are only 3 or 4 regular posters who have created ongoing problems in the past year, and whose posts have generated multiple complaints. Catshooter was one of them.

From a safety stand point it is still unfair to allow those rediculous post to remain on the site. Complaints has nothing to do with the integrity of the post, SIR. Bill

Bill, perhaps I'm not doing a good job communicating. If there are other bad posts, I WILL delete them, but I have to know they exist first. It is impossible for me to read every post in every thread. I only have time to read a fraction of what is on the board. Somebody has to lead me to the offending post first. Then I can,and will) take action.

Just yesterday Catshooter said there was a bad exchange of posts on a thread I had never seen before. On his suggestion, I found the thread, found the posts, and decided to delete the thread in its entirety. CatShooter was right--the thread was out of control--so I deleted it right then and there. That's how it often works.

If there's stuff you think needs deletion just let me know where it is.
 
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