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Help with "The Flyer"

Jim,

I would be careful of using an unsized case. With a COAL case that is bumped .002", all you have to do is add .002" to your reading, if it's really that that important. As long as we have a consistent measurement we are fine, even if what we think is .020" off the lands is really .022".

However, a COAL case that doesn't easily fit in the chamber can hang up too short and we can wind up with readings that are .050" too long. These can be very consistent as well--ask me how I know.......
Thx Blaine good call, yes indeed always caution, I still want the modified case to cycle properly just not resized making it a multi purpose case.

I may be in the minority on this but that’s the way I was taught. ( or I should say that’s how it was introduced to me )
 
My ode to the flyer:
MDyEbFP.jpg
 
Here's the photos from the 22-250...
Could be gun handling? Tony Boyer was quoted as saying he could look at how someone was holding the rifle and tell you if the shot would be high, low, left ect. I never had a shot that far out of a group. I would try to find out what an expert recommends as far as where your hands should be, where and how hard the stock touches the shoulder, bag problems ect. Since it happens with 2 rifles I would tend to think bench technique. No pattern as to where the out hits. Do you flinch. Have someone load your rifle without you watching. A few live rounds one with an empty chamber. If you are honest you will know if you flinched or jerked the trigger. I have trouble pulling the trigger, it's set a little under 2 pounds but it feels like 20 pounds. I guess I don't flinch because when the gun goes off I can see the cross hairs move on the target. When I was younger I shot a 7mm Rem Mag off the bench and shot small groups. Find a serious bench shooter at the range and have him shoot a group with your rifle or have him just watch you and give some things to work on. My rifles are for GH hunting but I shoot a lot at the range. I consider anything over .400" a bad group mostly my fault.

Why are the groups not centered at the same place on the target?
 
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I'm reaching out to see if I can get some help with the flyer round that keeps messing up that great group, or great group to me if y'all are getting better ones, LoL! :)

Today I shot my .308 Winchester a Remington 700 Blueprinted by LongRifles sporting with a PTG bolt and a 24" K and P 1:11.25 Twist 6 Groove Barrel sitting in a Manners T4A Stock with Mini Chassis and a Timney HIT Trigger set at 8oz (Actually 6.8oz after testing with a trigger pull guage) and a Vortex PST 6-24x50 FFP Illuminated Optic and a Harris Bipod with Hawk Hill Talon Feet shooting off a bench with a Caldwell sandbag in the rear.

The distance is 100 Yards and my load is... .308 Ammo is seated at 2.825 COAL about .020 off the lands and is New Lapua Brass, 175gr Sierra MatchKing HPBT Projectile sitting atop 43.0grs of IMR 4064 and a Sellier & Beloit LR Primer.

Additionally, I also shot my 22-250 which is a factory Remington 70with a 1:14 twist barrel sitting in a manners T2A Stock with MIni Chassis and a Timney HIT Trigger set at 8oz (Actually 6.8oz after testing with a trigger pull guage) and a Vortex Diamondback 6-24x50 FFP Optic and a Harris Bipod with Hawk Hill Talon Feet shooting off a bench with a Caldwell sandbag in the rear.

The distance is 100 yards and my load is... 22-250 Ammo is seated at 2.440 COAL and 2.100 CBTO AND .018 off the lands. Brass is 1x fired LAPUA brass fully prepped (Annealed, deburred chamfered, primer pockets uniformed and chamfered, FL Resized with shoulders bumped back .002, 52gr Sierra MatchKing HPBT Projectile sitting atop 36.0grs of H4895 and a Sellier & Beloit LR Primer.

Ive enclosed some photos of the best groups from the day with data from the chronograph embedded in them. Let me know your thoughts and any tips you'd recommend that I could implement to potentially do better next time.

Thank You In Advance!
I shoot all of my groups with a bipod off of a bench and it seems to be OK for me. Didn't want to buy an expensive competition rest. Cannot stand the looks of stuff like the Caldwell contraption. I made an adjustable rest with a bag on it. Went back to a bipod since it's what I use for GH hunting. I slide the rifle back and forth a little and adjust the bag v-grove so the cross hair moves vertical when sliding the rifle an inch or so. Have to make sure the bipod legs are locked forward every shot. Once I am set up I mark the rear bag and bipod leg position on the bench with a Sharpie marker. The bag and bipod have to be repositioned after every shot. You mentioned cheek weld. I don't think your supposed to have cheek weld on a bench gun. Not sure but I believe your not supposed to put your thumb over the small of the stock. The more body parts touching the rifle the more complicated the variables to sort out. Where you position the rifle on your shoulder affects how the rifle moves when it starts to recoil. The butt should be on the holllow spot left of your shoulder bone, not on the bone. The rifle stock will tend to roll off of the rounded bone on recoil.. It's probably very difficult to determine how every part of your setup affects groups. I try to minimize how I affect group size.
 
Quick Update….

I just got back from the range, I have a ton of data to process and I’ll make an update post for everyone after that. I will say the results were substantially improved and I am VERY pleased. There’s still a lot to work on but all of that is behind the rifle, if you know what I mean.. Lol.

I’ll be in touch soon, please give me a day or so, I’m excited to share, but just like my last post, I want to give all the information I have on hand. Thanks for your patience in advance.
 
Okay! After spending some time processing the data from the range day, I am now able to share my findings from yesterday. The weather was perfect however there was a little wind but nothing that really affects my shooting much considering the range that I goto has concrete barrier walls the length of the lane. On the 22-250 and 308 Winchester, I did notice consistencies that I wasn't able to get before because things were all over the place. Now that everything is documented, it makes for a more purposeful range session with measurable results that allow for tweaking when I get back to the reloading bench.

As far as the 22-250 goes I noticed the batches that were 2.425 COAL | 2.075 CBTO which comes out to 0.043" jump to the lands and 2.400 COAL | 2.050" CBTO which comes out to 0.068" jump to the lands seemed to be the range for seating depth that performed the best. The loads that performed the best from these batches were the higher higher charge loads in the first batch and the middle charges in the second batch. The last batch performed the worst in my opinion. That said, i feel my shooting was good but I think I could have shot a little better. I definitely want to get out there again but focus more on these loads I mentioned earlier. Following are photos of the targets for all the ammo made for 22-250....

Batch 1.jpg

Batch 2.jpg

Batch 3.jpg


The 308 Winchester loads seemed to perform better with change in charges and seating depth. I think what im going to do with those is focus more on the charges I grouped better with but also get more trigger time with them considering I think I pulled a few. I spent a fair amount of time with the recoil of the 22-250 and switching to the recoil of the 308 didn't help with that much. Following are the targets for all the ammo made for 308 Winchester...

Load Recap.jpg


Okay, I'm open to hearing everyone's opinion and advice... Thanks in advance.
 

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    Load Recap.jpg
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For those who are still following this, I thought I’d share an update with some targets…

22-250 Update…
Since the last time out, I noticed a couple loads in 22-250 that shot great. The seating depth was 2.400 COAL | 2.050 CBTO with 35.40grs of H4895 and Federal #210 Primers. The cases are Lapua with the necks turned to 0.014, freshly annealed, FL Resized with a neck bushing of 0.248 and mandrel expanded to 0.222 which gives 0.0025 neck tension. This load shot 0.511 MOA last time out. Also, the same setup with 35.70grs of H4895 shot 0.518 MOA. So I loaded up a couple batches of those two loads and went out again recently and produced two repeatable groups on the first load at 0.478 MOA and 0.493 MOA.

953E5132-51D9-48EF-AD83-9E1A651EFD8E.jpeg

308 Winchester Update…
Since the last time out, I noticed a couple loads in 308 Winchester that shot great. The seating depth was 2.830 COAL | 2.245 CBTO with 42.70 of IMR 4064 and Federal #210 Primers. The cases are Lapua with the necks turned to 0.014, freshly annealed, FL Resized with a neck bushing of 0.331 and mandrel expanded to 0.3055 which gives 0.0025 neck tension. This load shot 0.542 MOA last time out. I loaded up a few small batches of this loade and went out again recently and produced repeatable groups on this first load at 0.607 MOA but I know for certain I pulled the 5th shot. Therefore, I adjusted my calculations without that shot and came up with 0.336 MOA for this group.

B7A18BBF-024A-434B-83F2-24EAB18ABA52.jpeg

I think it’s safe to say I have snuck up on an accuracy mode for both of these rifles. I’ve definitely come a long way from where I was when starting this thread.

Thanks again for everyone’s input, it’s been helpful for sure!
 
I'm reaching out to see if I can get some help with the flyer round that keeps messing up that great group, or great group to me if y'all are getting better ones, LoL! :)

Today I shot my .308 Winchester a Remington 700 Blueprinted by LongRifles sporting with a PTG bolt and a 24" K and P 1:11.25 Twist 6 Groove Barrel sitting in a Manners T4A Stock with Mini Chassis and a Timney HIT Trigger set at 8oz (Actually 6.8oz after testing with a trigger pull guage) and a Vortex PST 6-24x50 FFP Illuminated Optic and a Harris Bipod with Hawk Hill Talon Feet shooting off a bench with a Caldwell sandbag in the rear.

The distance is 100 Yards and my load is... .308 Ammo is seated at 2.825 COAL about .020 off the lands and is New Lapua Brass, 175gr Sierra MatchKing HPBT Projectile sitting atop 43.0grs of IMR 4064 and a Sellier & Beloit LR Primer.

Additionally, I also shot my 22-250 which is a factory Remington 70with a 1:14 twist barrel sitting in a manners T2A Stock with MIni Chassis and a Timney HIT Trigger set at 8oz (Actually 6.8oz after testing with a trigger pull guage) and a Vortex Diamondback 6-24x50 FFP Optic and a Harris Bipod with Hawk Hill Talon Feet shooting off a bench with a Caldwell sandbag in the rear.

The distance is 100 yards and my load is... 22-250 Ammo is seated at 2.440 COAL and 2.100 CBTO AND .018 off the lands. Brass is 1x fired LAPUA brass fully prepped (Annealed, deburred chamfered, primer pockets uniformed and chamfered, FL Resized with shoulders bumped back .002, 52gr Sierra MatchKing HPBT Projectile sitting atop 36.0grs of H4895 and a Sellier & Beloit LR Primer.

Ive enclosed some photos of the best groups from the day with data from the chronograph embedded in them. Let me know your thoughts and any tips you'd recommend that I could implement to potentially do better next time.

Thank You In Advance
 
Okay! After spending some time processing the data from the range day, I am now able to share my findings from yesterday. The weather was perfect however there was a little wind but nothing that really affects my shooting much considering the range that I goto has concrete barrier walls the length of the lane. On the 22-250 and 308 Winchester, I did notice consistencies that I wasn't able to get before because things were all over the place. Now that everything is documented, it makes for a more purposeful range session with measurable results that allow for tweaking when I get back to the reloading bench.

As far as the 22-250 goes I noticed the batches that were 2.425 COAL | 2.075 CBTO which comes out to 0.043" jump to the lands and 2.400 COAL | 2.050" CBTO which comes out to 0.068" jump to the lands seemed to be the range for seating depth that performed the best. The loads that performed the best from these batches were the higher higher charge loads in the first batch and the middle charges in the second batch. The last batch performed the worst in my opinion. That said, i feel my shooting was good but I think I could have shot a little better. I definitely want to get out there again but focus more on these loads I mentioned earlier. Following are photos of the targets for all the ammo made for 22-250....

View attachment 1351375

View attachment 1351376

View attachment 1351377


The 308 Winchester loads seemed to perform better with change in charges and seating depth. I think what im going to do with those is focus more on the charges I grouped better with but also get more trigger time with them considering I think I pulled a few. I spent a fair amount of time with the recoil of the 22-250 and switching to the recoil of the 308 didn't help with that much. Following are the targets for all the ammo made for 308 Winchester...

View attachment 1351381


Okay, I'm open to hearing everyone's opinion and advice... Thanks in advance.
I started reloading three years ago. I started with a Bergara 6.5mm Creedmoor. I tried doing ladder testing, but frequent fliers put a real crimp on the usefulness of my testing. You can imagine my frustration. I doubled down on my reloading procedures and my shooting technique at the range. I still had almost many fliers. Naturally, I was trying to figure out the cause when I stumbled across the idea of neck-turning. I decided on K&M Percision. They put me on the right path, and "low and behold!" the fliers disappeared!!

So... needless to say, I'm a staunch believer in neck-turning. Call K&M . You won't be sorry.
 
I started reloading three years ago. I started with a Bergara 6.5mm Creedmoor. I tried doing ladder testing, but frequent fliers put a real crimp on the usefulness of my testing. You can imagine my frustration. I doubled down on my reloading procedures and my shooting technique at the range. I still had almost many fliers. Naturally, I was trying to figure out the cause when I stumbled across the idea of neck-turning. I decided on K&M Percision. They put me on the right path, and "low and behold!" the fliers disappeared!!

So... needless to say, I'm a staunch believer in neck-turning. Call K&M . You won't be sorry.
I already turn my necks.
 
Scratching my head seeing your coal(cartridge overall length) for the 22-250. I have loaded for several different factory and custom barreled 22-250's. The factory barrels usually like a seated length 0.015-0.030 over suggested(manufacturer) length. Example Nosler 55 BT 2.350, I have had great accuracy 2.370-2.375. My Lilja barreled minimal freebore 22-250's, run at 2.345-2.350.
 
Scratching my head seeing your coal(cartridge overall length) for the 22-250. I have loaded for several different factory and custom barreled 22-250's. The factory barrels usually like a seated length 0.015-0.030 over suggested(manufacturer) length. Example Nosler 55 BT 2.350, I have had great accuracy 2.370-2.375. My Lilja barreled minimal freebore 22-250's, run at 2.345-2.350.
There’s no set standard, Every rifle is different and react to bullets differently. I run Sierra MatchKing 52gr HPBT and these performed best when I seated out to 2.050 CBTO (2.400 COAL).

The groups opened up when I seated further in and the same went for going further out. This seems to be the area that this rifles likes these so that’s what I’m running with.
 
Granted all rifles are slightly different, however you are seating well under 1 caliber diameter into the case mouth(including the bt). You may have to play with the neck interference fit. I personally always seat at least one bullet diameter into the case mouth. I do load all my ammo for field use, not paper/bench use.
 
I'm reaching out to see if I can get some help with the flyer round that keeps messing up that great group, or great group to me if y'all are getting better ones, LoL! :)

Today I shot my .308 Winchester a Remington 700 Blueprinted by LongRifles sporting with a PTG bolt and a 24" K and P 1:11.25 Twist 6 Groove Barrel sitting in a Manners T4A Stock with Mini Chassis and a Timney HIT Trigger set at 8oz (Actually 6.8oz after testing with a trigger pull guage) and a Vortex PST 6-24x50 FFP Illuminated Optic and a Harris Bipod with Hawk Hill Talon Feet shooting off a bench with a Caldwell sandbag in the rear.

The distance is 100 Yards and my load is... .308 Ammo is seated at 2.825 COAL about .020 off the lands and is New Lapua Brass, 175gr Sierra MatchKing HPBT Projectile sitting atop 43.0grs of IMR 4064 and a Sellier & Beloit LR Primer.

Additionally, I also shot my 22-250 which is a factory Remington 70with a 1:14 twist barrel sitting in a manners T2A Stock with MIni Chassis and a Timney HIT Trigger set at 8oz (Actually 6.8oz after testing with a trigger pull guage) and a Vortex Diamondback 6-24x50 FFP Optic and a Harris Bipod with Hawk Hill Talon Feet shooting off a bench with a Caldwell sandbag in the rear.

The distance is 100 yards and my load is... 22-250 Ammo is seated at 2.440 COAL and 2.100 CBTO AND .018 off the lands. Brass is 1x fired LAPUA brass fully prepped (Annealed, deburred chamfered, primer pockets uniformed and chamfered, FL Resized with shoulders bumped back .002, 52gr Sierra MatchKing HPBT Projectile sitting atop 36.0grs of H4895 and a Sellier & Beloit LR Primer.

Ive enclosed some photos of the best groups from the day with data from the chronograph embedded in them. Let me know your thoughts and any tips you'd recommend that I could implement to potentially do better next time.

Thank You In Advance!
If there is someone at the range that's a good competition shooter have him watch your bench technique and evaluate your front and rear bag setup. I see some guys at the range that have not bothered to learn or improve bench manners. Seems like they just try to hold the crosshairs on the target and pull the trigger nothing else concerns them. You have to be analytic and think about everything you are doing and equipment. They don't seem to realize the support system under the rifle is critical. It isn't always the brass, load or the gun. On a bench gun you don't want any cheek weld or grip anywhere on the rifle.

I use no cheek weld and the three fingers on my trigger hand pull the rifle with light pressure into my shoulder. Never tried free recoil. I don't think I have the quality of bag and rest setup to allow it. Many of best shooters say that only the trigger finger touches the rifle. It's a varmint hunting rifle that shoots any load under .400". I have shot groups under .250" and a couple in the 1's. The few flyers I get are probably because I shoot a lot of cheap mass produced bullets. I consider 1/4" outside the group a flyer.
 
Always just one shot outside the group. Is it always the 5th. shot?
Don't remember. I have not been to the range in a couple years since I had back surgery. If I have a few small flyers I don't worry about it. I certainly had flyers farther than 1/4" outside a group. It's not typical and I don't worry about it since the next group is probably small. The rifle is good enough, I should never miss a GH out to 300 yards. I shoot a lot off of a bench but I consider myself a GH hunter and not anywhere near a competitive shooter. My only competition is myself and trying to be consistent. About five years ago I had a Hornady 58 gr VMax bullet with a large part of the jacker missing. I wish I still had it to show on the website.

All of the groups I see in the pictures I would call very bad. I would expect a factory rifle to shoot not much more the 1.5" groups without flyers. I buy nothing but Kreiger barrels. My rifle was glass bedded by Nelson Berger RIP , Walts brother.
 
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Hello Everyone.. Im checking in to give a little update on this. I'm just checking in to let yall know that I went out to the range again randomly to test out my newly acquired LabRadar and I used my 308 for this task to get some better data than I already had on this rifle and its ammo.

I'm proud to report that I shot some of the best repeatable groups I've shot in a long time. This ammo is perfectly dialed in to this rifle and now its just me that I have to work on... THE NEVER ENDING FULL TIME JOB LOL!!!

That said, I thought id share a target from that day. The middle two groups opened up slightly due to my excitement and probably not letting the barrel cool inbetween 5 shot shot strings. But the last two were done after letting the barrel cool for about 5 minutes, however long it took to run downrange to do a target change.
A91B78EB-31CC-4FB4-967B-197114D05C29.jpeg
 
Y

You could have something there I didn’t take the time to read his load data . I shoot 50 vmax in a couple of my 22-250’s and 34.5 grains of 4895 is a pretty stout load and very accurate of course every gun is different and that’s off memory I haven’t loaded for them in quit sometime
Wayne
Yes! Fliers are quite problematic, particularly when load testing.

When I started neck turning, 95% of my flyers disappeared! That remaining 5% is probably me. This observation applies to my Bergara 6.5 Creedmoor and my Ruger Hawkeye 6.5 PRC, using v bullets, brass, primers and powders.

I started with the K&M neck turning rig and am very happy with it. I have no reason to try others. I take the cases down to .0140" wall thickness, checking with a Starrett ball mic.
 
I'm reaching out to see if I can get some help with the flyer round that keeps messing up that great group, or great group to me if y'all are getting better ones, LoL! :)
Honestly.... I don't beleive in "flyers"

I believe my 5 shot groups with "flyers" just need more load development. That the "flyer" is caused by powder / bullet / powder charge / seating depth / primer choice / neck tension / shoulder bump / brass prep , etc needing change.

Or could be a wind gust etc.

Every once in a while (rarely for me, anyway) there's the yanked shot - where I know *I* was the cause thru lack of focus or poor setup / follow thru / trigger squeeze / mental discipline, etc. Good loads will repeat. If they don't, the problem is not a flyer. Its a bad load.

Guns and ammo are inanimate objects. They do what the laws of physics tell them. If my set up / follow thru / trigger sqeeze is right, the group size is the group size. If its a bad group, its a bad load. Good consistent loads are the result of perspiration, not inspiration. In my thinking, a flyer is telling me to get back to work.

The good part about that is bad groups are alwqays fixable, not the result of bad luck, or kharma.

YMMV.
 

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