Help with "The Flyer"

[Flea21]

I'm reaching out to see if I can get some help with the flyer round that keeps messing up that great group, or great group to me if y'all are getting better ones, LoL!

Today I shot my .308 Winchester a Remington 700 Blueprinted by LongRifles sporting with a PTG bolt and a 24" K and P 1:11.25 Twist 6 Groove Barrel sitting in a Manners T4A Stock with Mini Chassis and a Timney HIT Trigger set at 8oz (Actually 6.8oz after testing with a trigger pull guage) and a Vortex PST 6-24x50 FFP Illuminated Optic and a Harris Bipod with Hawk Hill Talon Feet shooting off a bench with a Caldwell sandbag in the rear.

The distance is 100 Yards and my load is... .308 Ammo is seated at 2.825 COAL about .020 off the lands and is New Lapua Brass, 175gr Sierra MatchKing HPBT Projectile sitting atop 43.0grs of IMR 4064 and a Sellier & Beloit LR Primer.

Additionally, I also shot my 22-250 which is a factory Remington 70with a 1:14 twist barrel sitting in a manners T2A Stock with MIni Chassis and a Timney HIT Trigger set at 8oz (Actually 6.8oz after testing with a trigger pull guage) and a Vortex Diamondback 6-24x50 FFP Optic and a Harris Bipod with Hawk Hill Talon Feet shooting off a bench with a Caldwell sandbag in the rear.

The distance is 100 yards and my load is... 22-250 Ammo is seated at 2.440 COAL and 2.100 CBTO AND .018 off the lands. Brass is 1x fired LAPUA brass fully prepped (Annealed, deburred chamfered, primer pockets uniformed and chamfered, FL Resized with shoulders bumped back .002, 52gr Sierra MatchKing HPBT Projectile sitting atop 36.0grs of H4895 and a Sellier & Beloit LR Primer.

Ive enclosed some photos of the best groups from the day with data from the chronograph embedded in them. Let me know your thoughts and any tips you'd recommend that I could implement to potentially do better next time.

Thank You In Advance!

 

[Flea21]

Here's the photos from the 22-250...

 

[bozo699]

In every case it looks like the anticipated 5th shot
Wayne

 

[Firearmsunlimited]

Just a few thoughts based on your 22-250 groups. A 4 + 1 or a 3 + 2 group usually indicates the load is a little to hot. The groups which appear to be basically horizontal usually indicates a neck tension issue. Try lowering your load to 34.4, check your neck tension and try for .02 bullet grip. I'm not sure why you are jumping the bullet .018. The node should be +6 to -6. Wayne certainly could be 100% correct. If all else fails try shooting off of a good front rest and rear bag.

 

[bozo699]

Y

Just a few thoughts based on your 22-250 groups. A 4 + 1 or a 3 + 2 group usually indicates the load is a little to hot. The groups which appear to be basically horizontal usually indicates a neck tension issue. Try lowering your load to 34.4, check your neck tension and try for .02 bullet grip. I'm not sure why you are jumping the bullet .018. The node should be +6 to -6. Wayne certainly could be 100% correct. If all else fails try shooting off of a good front rest and rear bag.

You could have something there I didn’t take the time to read his load data . I shoot 50 vmax in a couple of my 22-250’s and 34.5 grains of 4895 is a pretty stout load and very accurate of course every gun is different and that’s off memory I haven’t loaded for them in quit sometime
Wayne

 

[Flea21]

Just a few thoughts based on your 22-250 groups. A 4 + 1 or a 3 + 2 group usually indicates the load is a little to hot. The groups which appear to be basically horizontal usually indicates a neck tension issue. Try lowering your load to 34.4, check your neck tension and try for .02 bullet grip. I'm not sure why you are jumping the bullet .018. The node should be +6 to -6. Wayne certainly could be 100% correct. If all else fails try shooting off of a good front rest and rear bag.

I use a Porter Precision Products Mandrel Die with a .222 Mandrel and I’m getting .002 - .0025 neck tension.

I do not shoot into the lands, I tried that once before and got worse results. I noticed when I started to go out to .015 - .018 before the lands the groups got tighter.

As far as pressure goes, I don’t have a meter but use QuickLOAD to get a relative idea of what’s going on and I check my casings after firing. I’m getting no signs of high pressure from them and the bolt cycles smoothly with no added tension after firing. Funny thing is QuickLOAD shows I can go substantially higher in pressures but I’m tracking the FPS and see that my rifle shoots around 100 Feet/Sec faster than what its projecting.

I just seem to have that flyer that I’d like to work on getting less of and am wondering if it’s more shooting technique, which I don’t dent at all. But also, is it something with my load that I could tweak a little as well… Hence the ask here.

 

[lawman29]

You are shooting off a bi-pod. I do not do load development off of a bi-pod. Load development off a solid front rest and rear bag. After load developed then go to the bi-pod and see if you can replicate and work on technique. I don't have confidence that you have a tuned load at this point.

As to load development - I don't like trying to "force feed" a particular primer to a load. I'll pick a primer and play with powder, find a promising charge and then try several different primers - it matters, you can shrink them.
4895 is a good powder for 22-250, but I would also try H380.

 

[Pawnee Bill]

Try Erik Cortina's Tuner Brake. It fixed my flyers.

 

[M-61]

Best was always H380 for me.
I’ll put this out though probably not doable anymore
PMC (in the 70’s offered SR primer 22-250)
It was amazing how good grips shrunk
More importantly Wayne’s comment about 5th shot for me is unfortunately a reality
I shoot a great 4 shot group…. Then my mind may takes off.
Then I start worrying about how this last shot will screw things up.
As I’m thinking of this I worry about the the time that’s passing until I take this last shot.
Then if I’ve already chambered the round the BIG clock in my head is ticking telling me that chambered round is cooking in a hot chamber
By this point I’m done
That 5th is rough sometimes

 

[K22]

I'm in the bozo 699 crowd. Having shot competitive precision NRA pistol for 30 years, I learned that once you master the fundamentals of precision shooting, it become a metal exercise to maintain focus and not develop a "fear" of making a poor shot.

While probably not practical for rifle shooting with a scope if you can see the shots, in match competition (open sights) I stopped gazing down the spotting scope during the slow fire stage during competition to avoid developing increase stress to make the perfect shot and instead change my focus on the repeating the fundamentals. However, in practice, I always called each shot using the spotting scope because this is how you learn to correct mistakes in technique.

Maybe try taking a 6 or even 7th shot and see what happen after you got the "bad" shot out of the way.

Probably not the cause but how hot is the barrel on the fifth shot. Are the shots paced or fired in rapid succession?

Also agree with the bipod comment. This induces another variable and in my way of thinking, is performance shooting, not load development shooting. It's never a good idea to mix the two. In load develop, your goal should be to find the most precise load by eliminating as many shooting variables as possible.

Don't get wrong, I do 95%+ of all my range shooting in performance mode, i.e., shooting the way I use the rifle which for me is shooting off of shooting sticks for varmint / predator hunting. But I'm shooting loads that have been proven to be very accurate by bench testing with a very stable front and rear rest, on days without mirage or wind.

Another item you may consider is using a "bull" bag. They are one the best front rests I've ever used which helps eliminate a lot of shooter error. There are a number of excellent videos on this. One of the premier rifle makers in the country uses this type of rests to test all his custom-built rifles. He shoots at the one of the ranges I belong to.

 

[bozo699]

I
Maybe try taking a 6 or even 7th shot and see what happen after you got the "bad" shot out of the way.

Probably not the cause but how hot is the barrel on the fifth shot. Are the shots paced or fired in rapid succession?

Also agree with the bipod comment. This induces another variable and in my way of thinking, is performance shooting, not load development shooting. It's never a good idea to mix the two. In load develop, your goal should be to find the most precise load by eliminating as many shooting variables as possible.

Don't get wrong, I do 95%+ of all my range shooting in performance mode, i.e., shooting the way I use the rifle which for me is shooting off of shooting sticks for varmint / predator hunting. But I'm shooting loads that have been proven to be very accurate by bench testing with a very stable front and rear rest, on days without mirage or wind.

Another item you may consider is using a "bull" bag. They are one the best front rests I've ever used which helps eliminate a lot of shooter error. There are a number of excellent videos on this. One of the premier rifle makers in the country uses this type of rests to test all his custom-built rifles. He shoots at the one of the ranges I belong to.

This is great advice and I intended on saying it myself!….. try to do say 7 shot groups and try as hard to keep them in the group as all the rest!… if 5,6and 7 go out “flyers” you may have a rifle, setup or loading issue but if only 7 is out or even 6&7 and 5 is tight I’m gonna say it’s you.

25 years ago I had…. Still do …. A Sako .222 it would shoot in the .1’s and less at 100 yards a very accurate rifle!…. All of a sudden one day I had a 3/4” rifle it just wouldn’t shoot anymore!…. I got so frustrated I just couldn’t get it!…. Then I noticed all my rifles were shooting large groups!… so I had a buddy that was a good shot shoot my deuce he didn’t shoot it as well as it could shoot but smaller than me!…. I pondered over it several days!…
I had bought a camcorder for my boys football games I set it up and taped myself shooting I couldn’t find anything wrong!!!!!!….. my son said try a different angle dad!…. And sure enough when connected to the tv there it was in full color!…
For years I shot with no hearing protection!… I know don’t start in!… unlike other folks it didn’t hurt my ears or so I thought so why bother! Well my body was smarter than I was I had developed a flinch!…
Oh it wasn’t really noticeable except on camera!… as I squeezed the trigger I would blink which was enough to upset my cheek weld!…. It took earplugs and months of practice using a 22 Rimfire and working my way back into Centerfire to over come it!…. Wayyyyy harder in fact than quitting smoking and drinking my body had got use to it and it was second nature.
My long winded point being have someone watch you or setup a camera you may be surprised your doing something wrong and are not aware of it!…
Best of luck
Wayne

 

[GetReal]

Presently I'm taking a hard focus on my shooting technique ....especially managing recoil. Recent study has shown me mismanagement of recoil can open 100 yd groups up to over 2 inches.

My post is here:

Shooting tutorials - recoil

I thought these were good.... Think these hold true? Pathway to better groups?

forum.accurateshooter.com

 

[Firearmsunlimited]

It hasn't been mentioned but many, and I do mean many, times a shooter's barrel is not as clean as he thinks it is. Also, you never mentioned what make of barrels your rigs have on them and how many rounds they have through them.

I'm in agreement with Lawman 69 and M 61 on the H-380 powder. My .22-250 bests were .118 group with 38.0 of H-380 and .195 with 32.0 of IMR-3031. Both shot with a deep jam and light neck tension from a pencil barrel.

I would retest using Winchester or Federal 210M primers and 3 shot groups at 200 to start with.

How much variation is there with your trim to length and the same with your neck walls.

The bipod has to go for at least initial testing. Don't forget to remove your swivel studs before using a front rest. Shoot the mirage - it's honest.

 

[Flea21]

It hasn't been mentioned but many, and I do mean many, times a shooter's barrel is not as clean as he thinks it is. Also, you never mentioned what make of barrels your rigs have on them and how many rounds they have through them.

I'm in agreement with Lawman 69 and M 61 on the H-380 powder. My bests were .118 group with 38.0 of H-380 and .195 with 32.0 of IMR-3031. Both shot with a deep jam and light neck tension from a pencil barrel.

I would retest using Winchester or Federal 210M primers and 3 shot groups at 200 to start with.

How much variation is there with your trim to length and the same with your neck walls.

The bipod has to go for at least initial testing. Shoot the mirage - it's honest.

Barrel information is posted.. the 22-250 is a factory rifle and barrel with approximately 5-750rds through it and the 308 has a K and P barrel with about 500-750rds through it as well.

There is practically variation with my trim length, I get + or minus .0005 to .001 at the most.

 

[Firearmsunlimited]

Barrel information is posted.. the 22-250 is a factory rifle and barrel with approximately 5-750rds through it and the 308 has a K and P barrel with about 500-750rds through it as well.

There is practically variation with my trim length, I get + or minus .0005 to .001 at the most.

What about neck wall thickness variation?

 

[Flea21]

What about neck wall thickness variation?

I’ll have to remeasure but I believe they were consistent all around otherwise I would have trimmed the necks.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

Did you make scope adjustments between some of the group's? Bipod influence, the 2-50 load seems hot at least for a couple of my rifles.

 

[Firearmsunlimited]

I’ll have to remeasure but I believe they were consistent all around otherwise I would have trimmed the necks.

So you have a neck mic and a neck turning tool?

 

[Flea21]

Did you make scope adjustments between some of the group's? Bipod influence, the 2-50 load seems hot at least for a couple of my rifles.

I did not make a scope adjustment and I maintained the same point of aim. In regards to the load, there are no signs of pressure whatsoever, but I could dial them down a bit and slowly step back up if needed.

I did notice the groups with SDs of 12 or less were the best and the ones with higher SDs resulted in more spread out results.

 

[Flea21]

So you have a neck mic and a neck turning tool?

I have a digital ball micrometer to measure neck thickness. I also possess a neck turner and do turn my necks but didn’t on these because I recall they measured consistent right out of the box.