I agree. He's pushing it a little to hard. I'd be at about 34.4.
Help with "The Flyer"
- Thread starter Flea21
- Start date
With Lapua brass, you are right, it probably does not require any clean-up. Never hurts to check.
I don't see it mentioned in the thread but it would be a great idea to double check for clearance in the stock. Even a small amount of pressure at any point except the bedded area or action area will cause a flyer. Ask me how I know. LOL. If there is no contact anywhere and nothing mentioned above improved the groups swap over to a better primer. That primer does not seem to have a good reputation with some shooters.
One possibility is that they are not flyers. If you keep shooting more and more shots into the group you may find you have a normal distribution and these are just the 2 or 3 sigma data points. Unfortunately this takes a lot of data.
When I do load development I shoot ten shot groups and then average the best two or three groups. I do not throw out any flyers.
Mother Nature is a bitch.
When I do load development I shoot ten shot groups and then average the best two or three groups. I do not throw out any flyers.
Mother Nature is a bitch.
Just my opinion but I think the twist on the 308 is a tad to slow for that 175gr bullet. That can be cause for a flyer sometimes.
You might try the 168gr.
You might try the 168gr.
6MMsteve
Gold $$ Contributor
exactly
I'm reaching out to see if I can get some help with the flyer round that keeps messing up that great group, or great group to me if y'all are getting better ones, LoL!
Today I shot my .308 Winchester a Remington 700 Blueprinted by LongRifles sporting with a PTG bolt and a 24" K and P 1:11.25 Twist 6 Groove Barrel sitting in a Manners T4A Stock with Mini Chassis and a Timney HIT Trigger set at 8oz (Actually 6.8oz after testing with a trigger pull guage) and a Vortex PST 6-24x50 FFP Illuminated Optic and a Harris Bipod with Hawk Hill Talon Feet shooting off a bench with a Caldwell sandbag in the rear.
The distance is 100 Yards and my load is... .308 Ammo is seated at 2.825 COAL about .020 off the lands and is New Lapua Brass, 175gr Sierra MatchKing HPBT Projectile sitting atop 43.0grs of IMR 4064 and a Sellier & Beloit LR Primer.
Additionally, I also shot my 22-250 which is a factory Remington 70with a 1:14 twist barrel sitting in a manners T2A Stock with MIni Chassis and a Timney HIT Trigger set at 8oz (Actually 6.8oz after testing with a trigger pull guage) and a Vortex Diamondback 6-24x50 FFP Optic and a Harris Bipod with Hawk Hill Talon Feet shooting off a bench with a Caldwell sandbag in the rear.
The distance is 100 yards and my load is... 22-250 Ammo is seated at 2.440 COAL and 2.100 CBTO AND .018 off the lands. Brass is 1x fired LAPUA brass fully prepped (Annealed, deburred chamfered, primer pockets uniformed and chamfered, FL Resized with shoulders bumped back .002, 52gr Sierra MatchKing HPBT Projectile sitting atop 36.0grs of H4895 and a Sellier & Beloit LR Primer.
Ive enclosed some photos of the best groups from the day with data from the chronograph embedded in them. Let me know your thoughts and any tips you'd recommend that I could implement to potentially do better next time.
Thank You In Advance!
Great info here:
I spent many days dry firing at the bench this winter. Watching the reticle movement dry firing will help you get the hang of seeing where it is when or ideally just after you pull the trigger before recoil pushes the reticle away. When I dry fire the reticle will sit like a rock, vibrate or jump, either sideways or roughly on a 45 either way. The sideways is movement is caused by your trigger shaking the gun. Diagonals can be the rear bag not being settled or straight, cheek pressure, pushing sideways or up or down with your shoulder, inconsistent trigger hand pressure.
Vertical is inconsistent shoulder pressure or the rear bag has moved fore/aft or angled or different cheek pressure or lifting or pushing down on the but with your shoulder. Pulling the gun into your shoulder to much can cause the reticle to jump around when the trigger is pulled.
Your set up, like mine, provides no tracking. Every thou of recoil is before bullet exit is moving away from your poa. A firm hold mitigates this. Too firm you will exaggerate your pulse and muscle tremors into the gun.
Aim your gun without touching it. Then hold your gun and watch the reticle move, that can send a flyer anywhere. Stopping that is tricky.
Fall of ‘19 and recent. The rear bag hit the ground on the third shot. Keeping up with basics when your head is full of new stuff is another hill to climb. Good luck.
Rem700, factory trigger 1.5 lbs, 300 wsm.
Benchmark barrel.
I would drop the 308win load from 43 gr to 42.4 gr imr4064
22-250 load : 52 smk loaded at 2.440" coal leaves little bullet shank in the case mouth. If you're using bushing sizing die, I would use a smaller bushing. If you don't use bushing die, maybe a light crimp will help build up consistent pressure in the case before the bullet is released ?? just a thought.
or just seat them deeper in the case and don't be afraid to jump them some.
22-250 load : 52 smk loaded at 2.440" coal leaves little bullet shank in the case mouth. If you're using bushing sizing die, I would use a smaller bushing. If you don't use bushing die, maybe a light crimp will help build up consistent pressure in the case before the bullet is released ?? just a thought.
or just seat them deeper in the case and don't be afraid to jump them some.
I can't really help you much in finding your problem,but I can try to give you some idea of what all I had to do to get rid of the dreaded flier.I have a few decent shooting rifles that are what I consider to be fairly accurate,taking into consideration what they're built to do.The hands down best shooting rifle I own is a M700 in 223.It's always in the .2's and .3's when shot in good conditions.It'll once in a while venture into the .1's and once in a while it'll venture into the .7's,and when it throws a 3/4 inch group for 5 shots at 100 yards,I know it's me,not the rifle.
Many variables can cause a flier.Ammunition can be the culprit.I take great pains in the ammo I load for it.My method certainly isn't what some shooters use,but I get good results.Prep the brass the best you can.Sort it by weight or water capacity.I sort mine into groups of 5.I trim every loading to keep the necks the same length.I sort bullets by weight first and check the diameter with a micrometer.I sort the bullets into groups of 5.I don't use a depth adjustable priming tool.I seat the primers with a hand primer and basically go by feel.Powder can cause fliers,especially if loading on the warm side.
I recently re-worked an older Bell and Carlson Medalist stock.It now has a 3 inch wide forend that fits very well in my Seb Neo rest and I use baby powder on the rear bag and I don't pinch the rifle in the bag any more than what it takes to let it slide smoothly without any play.I can't shoot it nearly as well off a bipod,even a very good one.
The shooter is one of the most important aspects of accuracy there is.The rifle has to be held the same way every time without "driving" it.The sight should be centered on the target with no pressure on the stock.The rifle must not be forced to the center of the target.
Conditions drastically influence where the bullet goes.You have to get a feel for the wind and mirage and either wait for a lull or alter the sight picture to compensate for the weather.
Many variables can cause a flier.Ammunition can be the culprit.I take great pains in the ammo I load for it.My method certainly isn't what some shooters use,but I get good results.Prep the brass the best you can.Sort it by weight or water capacity.I sort mine into groups of 5.I trim every loading to keep the necks the same length.I sort bullets by weight first and check the diameter with a micrometer.I sort the bullets into groups of 5.I don't use a depth adjustable priming tool.I seat the primers with a hand primer and basically go by feel.Powder can cause fliers,especially if loading on the warm side.
I recently re-worked an older Bell and Carlson Medalist stock.It now has a 3 inch wide forend that fits very well in my Seb Neo rest and I use baby powder on the rear bag and I don't pinch the rifle in the bag any more than what it takes to let it slide smoothly without any play.I can't shoot it nearly as well off a bipod,even a very good one.
The shooter is one of the most important aspects of accuracy there is.The rifle has to be held the same way every time without "driving" it.The sight should be centered on the target with no pressure on the stock.The rifle must not be forced to the center of the target.
Conditions drastically influence where the bullet goes.You have to get a feel for the wind and mirage and either wait for a lull or alter the sight picture to compensate for the weather.
I had the action sent to Manners to to get fitted and it’s perfect to the stock. I appreciate the primer suggestion and will be switching to some CCI or federal which I have a ton of on my shelves.
that rifle was built by LongRifles, INc. Specifically to shoot that projectile so there’s no issues with twist rate and stabilization.
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
Yes the 11.25 twist will easily stabilize that bullet
Wayne
Fisher T&C
"Hit the one in the middle"
The groups have good dispersion and sd and es are good. Fundamentally I see pocket pressure and follow through issues. Technically I've found 175 MKs to shoot best between 2.8" and 2.820, did you do a jump test?
Being too close to the lands can cause too much initial pressure.
Being too close to the lands can cause too much initial pressure.
I did not do a jump test I had the rifle made so that I’d be restricted to mag length which I’ve found 2.825 feeds reliably. I believe I had .020 to the lands on that rifle last time I checked. I think I’ll be remeasuring that today because I wrote I down somewhere but misplaced those numbers.
Also, I’ll be doing some more measurements on the .308 & 22-250 brass and may clean the necks up a with a little turning like .0005 just to make sure everything possible to do with them is consistent. Also, going to back the loads down a little and do a load work up from that poo T to where I’m at and see if I can find something that shows better results.
Ultimately though, I think practice is what’s most required here but I’m sure a little tweaking couldn’t hurt.
JEFFPPC
Gold $$ Contributor
I have heard no mention of flags. Are you shooting over them when developing a load. If not your wasting time and money. Bench manners are they good ie consistent? Take what seems your best powder charge at this point and start with a square Mark on your bullet. Shoot a group, I use 2 shots to start use 3 if you want, now seen the bullet .002 deeper in the case and back up shooting until you see what you like. Repeat that group, if it repeats your close. Now try a 4 shot group, if it is still tight. And it repeats the rest is on you. Remember no flags in order to know your not getting caught in a condition change means your wasting your time and your money.
Without reading all of the post and not knowing your level of ability when it comes to shooting and developing tuned handloads and troubleshooting a rifle, there is one thing that jumps out for me right away from personal experience. Shooting from a bench with a Harris Bipod and expecting consistency is extremely difficult. I'm not saying it can't be done but it depends on the bench surface and gun handling. I never develop loads from a bipod on a bench. Once my gun shoots from a benchrest, I develop technique from a bipod. Some say load it, others don't, it will tell you what it likes and then it is up to you to be consistent, consistent , consistent. When my 6.5 get a flyer from a bench using a bipod, I know it was me. It is a 1/4 moa rifle from a solid rest and the only way it comes close from a bipod is off the ground on an atlas with the slack taken out and a good rear bag.I'm reaching out to see if I can get some help with the flyer round that keeps messing up that great group, or great group to me if y'all are getting better ones, LoL!
Today I shot my .308 Winchester a Remington 700 Blueprinted by LongRifles sporting with a PTG bolt and a 24" K and P 1:11.25 Twist 6 Groove Barrel sitting in a Manners T4A Stock with Mini Chassis and a Timney HIT Trigger set at 8oz (Actually 6.8oz after testing with a trigger pull guage) and a Vortex PST 6-24x50 FFP Illuminated Optic and a Harris Bipod with Hawk Hill Talon Feet shooting off a bench with a Caldwell sandbag in the rear.
The distance is 100 Yards and my load is... .308 Ammo is seated at 2.825 COAL about .020 off the lands and is New Lapua Brass, 175gr Sierra MatchKing HPBT Projectile sitting atop 43.0grs of IMR 4064 and a Sellier & Beloit LR Primer.
Additionally, I also shot my 22-250 which is a factory Remington 70with a 1:14 twist barrel sitting in a manners T2A Stock with MIni Chassis and a Timney HIT Trigger set at 8oz (Actually 6.8oz after testing with a trigger pull guage) and a Vortex Diamondback 6-24x50 FFP Optic and a Harris Bipod with Hawk Hill Talon Feet shooting off a bench with a Caldwell sandbag in the rear.
The distance is 100 yards and my load is... 22-250 Ammo is seated at 2.440 COAL and 2.100 CBTO AND .018 off the lands. Brass is 1x fired LAPUA brass fully prepped (Annealed, deburred chamfered, primer pockets uniformed and chamfered, FL Resized with shoulders bumped back .002, 52gr Sierra MatchKing HPBT Projectile sitting atop 36.0grs of H4895 and a Sellier & Beloit LR Primer.
Ive enclosed some photos of the best groups from the day with data from the chronograph embedded in them. Let me know your thoughts and any tips you'd recommend that I could implement to potentially do better next time.
Thank You In Advance!
Forum Boss
Administrator
Flyer Brass Segregation
When, during practice, running sighters, or in a match, I had an unexplained "Flyer", I would put that brass case in a different pile. All this "Flyer" brass was then relegated for fouler shots or varmint use with my 6mmBR.
I noticed, over time, a reduction in flyers. I can't tell you why the "bad boy" brass caused issues, but putting it out of the "good to go" group did help over the course of a season.
I concede that this is NOT science and it may not be repeatable for readers at all.
But this is similar to a procedure I used when bullet seating. If I had a case that felt weird or notably inconsistent when seating bullets with arbor press, I would mark that as a fouler. That procedure did definitely help. Again I can't tell you why, but the results on target were positive when I segregated the seating feel outliers.
When, during practice, running sighters, or in a match, I had an unexplained "Flyer", I would put that brass case in a different pile. All this "Flyer" brass was then relegated for fouler shots or varmint use with my 6mmBR.
I noticed, over time, a reduction in flyers. I can't tell you why the "bad boy" brass caused issues, but putting it out of the "good to go" group did help over the course of a season.
I concede that this is NOT science and it may not be repeatable for readers at all.
But this is similar to a procedure I used when bullet seating. If I had a case that felt weird or notably inconsistent when seating bullets with arbor press, I would mark that as a fouler. That procedure did definitely help. Again I can't tell you why, but the results on target were positive when I segregated the seating feel outliers.
Last edited:
JEFFPPC
Gold $$ Contributor
Good idea. Mark that piece of brass. If it repeats as a flyer, now it's a fouler. If it is in the group next time, it as not the brass. As far as seating and sorting by feel. False flag. I seat with a force guage. You can not tell by feel. Not open for debate. If you seat with a force gauge you will figure that out real quick.
Forum Boss: I DO have a force gauge on my arbor press. But I could feel different things in the handle, and sometimes, but not always, would see some spikes in the needle. In my experience the force gauge is really important, but does not reveal all.
And I would add importantly that, most of the time, when I would see unusual spikes I would definitely feel something in the handle -- so "feel" can be real, but then it IS much more demonstrable with the gauge dial. This is with thick necks and about .003" neck tension.
Last edited by a moderator:
Interesting and simple.. I can’t believe I didn’t do that! LoL
Next time around and from now on I will definitely seperate anything that’s seems off to me.. Thank You.
btw… This has been a great conversation with lots of information coming from different angles and I’m very grateful ti be able to receive it all from everyone. Thanks again and keep it coming, it’s great to share and learn and make one another better!
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.