Help with 21st Century Expander Die selection....

[eschafer]

I'm about to go the way of using an expander die for my neck sizing.... Just need clarification on the die body's... I load for 270 Win, 7mm-08 Rem, and 338 Win... Can I get away with buying just the one "Standard" die body, or will I need to buy the "Extra Long" die body too (specifically for 338 Win)? Will raising the die body in the press work for 338 Win? The description says they're chosen by case length, but. 338 win and 30-06 are so very close in length.. Emailed 21st Century, but seems they don't reply to customers.. One die would be most favourable... Any help is appreciated.. Thanks.

 

[Ned Ludd]

I recently encountered this exact issue. I thought there should be no reason I couldn't use my .30 cal mandrels in the standard .308 Win (short) die to open up the necks of a small number of .30-06 cases. That approach did not work well at all. Frankly, I really can't tell you why because in my mind, short stroking the ram to prevent damage to the case mouths should have worked. However, it did not generate satisfactory results at all, and it's difficult for me to explain exactly what was wrong with the cases prepped using the short die. They just weren't right, and I wasted a lot of time trying to make the short die body work correctly. In any event, I finally broke down and purchased the long body die, set it up per the instructions, and it worked perfectly with the .30-06 cases from the get go.

My advice would be that you might try using the appropriate mandrel in the shorter die body on a few cases, but if it doesn't provide the results you want immediately, bite the bullet, buy the long die body, and don't look back.

 

[eschafer]

Concentricity issues?

 

[Ned Ludd]

Like I said, I can't really explain what was wrong with the cases, except to say they weren't right...they weren't what I had expected from years of using the short/standard die body to size the necks of .308 Win brass. It wasn't poor concentricity, it was that using a mandrel that had given very predictable diametral/ neck expansion results with a specific brand of .308 Win brass did not do so with .30-06 brass from the same manufacturer. In fact, at first I thought it was a problem with the brass itself, but it wasn't. It would take pages to described what I did in an attempt to figure out what was happening, which I never really did figure out with any certainty. Suffice it to say that the extra long die worked perfectly with the same mandrel as soon as I installed it. You can give the short body die a try if you already have one, but if it doesn't generate the expected results, go with the [correct] long body die as indicated by 21st Century for the cartridge used.

 

[eschafer]

thanks for your experience and insight... I'll probably "bite the bullet" and get them both... rather than pay shipping twice...

 

[Ned Ludd]

thanks for your experience and insight... I'll probably "bite the bullet" and get them both... rather than pay shipping twice...

A thought just occurred to me, something I did not actually try as I already had the standard/short die body.

It is conceivable one could start with the long body die, but set and lock the lock ring appropriately for shorter cases that would ordinarily be used in conjunction with standard/short die body. When using that setup with longer cartridges, one could place a couple extra lock rings under the "tightened" lock rings as spacers before screwing it down into the press to provide extra clearance. To my eye, the difference in the length between the standard and long die bodies is not too different from the thickness of a couple extra lock rings. As mentioned, I did not try this, but it might work if one was willing to fiddle with the setup to get it "just right". I didn't try it because I already had the standard die body and adding two extra lock rings would have left too few threads in place when it was screwed into the press. However, it might work if starting out with the longer die body.

After the issues I had with the standard/short die body and longer .30-06 cases, my suggestion would still be to get the correct/recommended die bodies for the specific cartridges on which it will be used. In the long run, it will cost a little more, but may prevent some frustration if one die size doesn't fit all.

 

[Shooter13]

I'm about to go the way of using an expander die for my neck sizing.... Just need clarification on the die body's... I load for 270 Win, 7mm-08 Rem, and 338 Win... Can I get away with buying just the one "Standard" die body, or will I need to buy the "Extra Long" die body too (specifically for 338 Win)? Will raising the die body in the press work for 338 Win? The description says they're chosen by case length, but. 338 win and 30-06 are so very close in length.. Emailed 21st Century, but seems they don't reply to customers.. One die would be most favourable... Any help is appreciated.. Thanks.

They may be behind on email as they took off for Christmas and New Year, they have always been good to answer the email or phone! They are good people.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

@Petros284

 

[jepp2]

Can I get away with buying just the one "Standard" die body, or will I need to buy the "Extra Long" die body too (specifically for 338 Win)?

i thought I could get by with the short die. BUT, I was turning some 30-06 brass into 25-06 brass. I necked down before I turned the case necks. When I went to expand the long cases with the shorter die, I wasn't in the power portion of my press, and it was awkward and difficult to stoke the expander in and out of the case neck. I have both dies now.

So yes, you can theoretically get by with the short one, but you will not like it.

PS: for my shorter die, I went back and bought the die with the window. Highly recommended if you use it on cases of different lengths frequently.

 

[mikecr]

Something wrong with their design then. Any necks are only so long.
You could go Sinclair, and PMA mandrels. One universal die.

GENERATION II EXPANDER DIES | Brownells

Our Generation II Expander Dies completely capture the mandrel within the die so the mandrel cannot pull out. An O-ring in the die cap allows the mandrel to float a bit and find its own center within the case neck. All three Generation II dies are...

www.brownells.com

 

[jepp2]

Something wrong with their design then. Any necks are only so long.

??? Have you used one? Has absolutely nothing to do with the case neck length. Has everything to do with the distance the case neck is above the shell holder and having some of the die still screwed into the press.

When I use the short expander die on my 25-06 brass, the press handle is about horizontal when the mandrel encounters the case neck. Like I said, it can be used this way, but it is very awkward, and I chose not to.

 

[lotech]

I've had good results calling 21st Century. Might be better than an email.

 

[Petros284]

I'm about to go the way of using an expander die for my neck sizing.... Just need clarification on the die body's... I load for 270 Win, 7mm-08 Rem, and 338 Win... Can I get away with buying just the one "Standard" die body, or will I need to buy the "Extra Long" die body too (specifically for 338 Win)? Will raising the die body in the press work for 338 Win? The description says they're chosen by case length, but. 338 win and 30-06 are so very close in length.. Emailed 21st Century, but seems they don't reply to customers.. One die would be most favourable... Any help is appreciated.. Thanks.

I am just seeing this post. I am very sorry you did not get a reply. I check and answer all emails personally. We’ve been very busy these past few months but I make it a priority to answer all emails within a reasonable time period. Even when I was on vacation with my family when we were closed over Christmas I was checking and answering emails every night. Honestly, I never saw an email come in with this topic.

Seems the good folks here have answered your inquiry. Honestly you can use the standard body for most of your cases. The 338 win will come close to contact on the standard die and you will need to stop short to avoid this. This is where the viewing window on the Gen-X die body comes in handy. Optimally for full use of the press you’ll want an Extra Long body for the 338 Win but I know of many who just “short stroke” with longer cases and take care and are fine.

Please if you or anyone has any further questions do not hesitate to contact me personally at pete@21stcenturyshooting.com.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Something wrong with their design then. Any necks are only so long.
You could go Sinclair, and PMA mandrels. One universal die.

GENERATION II EXPANDER DIES | Brownells

Our Generation II Expander Dies completely capture the mandrel within the die so the mandrel cannot pull out. An O-ring in the die cap allows the mandrel to float a bit and find its own center within the case neck. All three Generation II dies are...

www.brownells.com

Ive found if you have a thick top casting like on a rock chucker or orange crusher you can back it out to just a couple threads in and you can size belted magnum size on a short body but its not ideal if youre already buying. The window is definitely a game changer

 

[Mulligan]

I am just seeing this post. I am very sorry you did not get a reply. I check and answer all emails personally. We’ve been very busy these past few months but I make it a priority to answer all emails within a reasonable time period. Even when I was on vacation with my family when we were closed over Christmas I was checking and answering emails every night. Honestly, I never saw an email come in with this topic.

Seems the good folks here have answered your inquiry. Honestly you can use the standard body for most of your cases. The 338 win will come close to contact on the standard die and you will need to stop short to avoid this. This is where the viewing window on the Gen-X die body comes in handy. Optimally for full use of the press you’ll want an Extra Long body for the 338 Win but I know of many who just “short stroke” with longer cases and take care and are fine.

Please if you or anyone has any further questions do not hesitate to contact me personally at pete@21stcenturyshooting.com.

What is a Gen-X die body?
Just looked at your website and did not see it.

CW

 

[Petros284]

What is a Gen-X die body?
Just looked at your website and did not see it.

CW

It is our version of the die body that has a window cut into it. It is hard coated 7075 Aluminum. Available in standard and extra long length. https://21stcenturyinnovation.com/buy-online/ols/products/expander-die-body/v/904-GenX w/ring

Thanks!

 

[TrxR]

It is our version of the die body that has a window cut into it. It is hard coated 7075 Aluminum. Available in standard and extra long length. https://21stcenturyinnovation.com/buy-online/ols/products/expander-die-body/v/904-GenX w/ring

Thanks!

Will your expander mandrels work in a PMA die body?

 

[Petros284]

From what I am told yes they will. The mandrels both share the same shank size.

 

[mikecr]

??? Have you used one? Has absolutely nothing to do with the case neck length. Has everything to do with the distance the case neck is above the shell holder and having some of the die still screwed into the press

I've used the Sinclair/PMA for this, beginning ~20yrs before any of you ever thought about mandrel neck expansion -for reloading. I was the one who brought this to the reloading community.
I do see what you're saying, and it would surprise me if the Sinclair/PMA doesn't work for your longer cartridges.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I've used the Sinclair/PMA for this, beginning ~20yrs before any of you ever thought about mandrel neck expansion -for reloading. I was the one who brought this to the reloading community.
I do see what you're saying, and it would surprise me if the Sinclair/PMA doesn't work for your longer cartridges.

I wish you wouldnt have kept it secret from everybody. Thats a technique we coulda been using! Thanks for inventing it either way