Help. Setting up Redding body die. Major FUBAR...

[Danattherock]

Read step two from this sites article about properly setting up a full size die.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2012/12/full-length-sizing-die-set-up-tip-from-sinclair-international/

I did this and the case got stuck, IN THE DIE. This was the 2nd time it happened. Cases are lubed. Die was cleaned prior to use. The die was backed off shell holder one full turn and the properly lubed case got stuck. Using same technique as I have hundreds of times in recent weeks. Only thing different is I'm using a Redding body die rather than my normal dies, a Redding Deluxe 3 die set.

Is it normal for cases to stick in a sizing die that is off the shell holder?



Dan





Lawrence,

Your condescending comments obviously don't help me. So I assume you are just getting your rocks off by salting my wounds. Reveals a great deal about your character.

You say my post is confusing because I said case was stuck and 20 minutes later with brass shavings all over I'm up and running again. Anyone can deduce I just used a stuck case removal tool. Then you ask me if I'm using 223 brass in 223 dies?? Are you #%+€#%~ serious?

Just a suggestion...take a deep breath and cool down a bit. I didn't see anything that this guy said as giving you grief. I wondered the same things myself. If you are going to come on this forum and ask advise you might try to be patient with the answers you get. Most of us are willing to help, but we sometimes need a little more information. Don't assume anyone is yanking your chain. Most of us have made mistakes or had problems with a tool or a load and we are willing to help.

Rick

There was plenty of BS in his post. But I shouldn't have responded to it. I am very humble here, if anything understating my knowledge. Just had a bad day and should have kept my cool, I agree.

My apologies Lawrence. Knob.


Joking.



Dan

 

[mikecr]

Danattherock, not trying to aggravate you, but neither neck sizing nor the top of a shelholder has anything to do with setup of a body die.
Actually, you simply lower ANY die(with fine adjustment) until you get desired results, or not. Other implications, like that from Sinclair, are wrong.
I say 'or not', because a grossly oversized AR chamber in 'custom' form may not be compatible with every die.

I consider RCBS case lube to be the best myself.

 

[Danattherock]

Sent you a pm Dan.... Listen before you get carried away let's get to the brass tacks.

You found success in your sizing procedure some time ago with regards to setting up your F/L sizing die and figuring out how to achieve a desired amount of bump... However upon further inspection you've now noticed that you have excessive runout.

OK so let's talk about runout , did you check your runout numbers after you switched to the Lee collet die? Seems to me if you wait to check runout till after you run them through the body die you'd only be guessing as to WHEN runout was introduced .

Good luck

Great point. As usual.

Runout on 21st century gauge averaged 3.5-4 thou so I decided to drop the current dies when it was becoming evident, probable at least, that the expander was causing my woes.

So I buy a forster seater, redding body sizer, and Lee neck collet. I was actually in the garage today making a test batch to compare against known values. I've spent lots of time rolling rounds on ball bearings lately.

I neck sized the brass, a known entity, that I've shot repeatedly this month. Same brass that has yielded several 0.2-0.5" groups, even with runout fluctuations from 2-8 thou. The test was derailed when the cases got stuck in the body die twice, each time with die about a full turn off the shell holder.

Will mail it back to Redding tomorrow. Sorry to act like Nancy. Just not a big fan of kicking folks that are down. Will try to better measure my responses in the future. Nobody likes reading negative Internet banter, me included.




Dan

 

[Danattherock]

OP,,,look at the die,,,read all the info on it,,,could it be a .222--.221 or something wront...Roger

Thanks man, but I checked all that while inspecting the die and cleaning it.


Dan

 

[Danattherock]

Danattherock, not trying to aggravate you, but neither neck sizing nor the top of a shelholder has anything to do with setup of a body die.
Actually, you simply lower ANY die(with fine adjustment) until you get desired results, or not. Other implications, like that from Sinclair, are wrong.
I say 'or not', because a grossly oversized AR chamber in 'custom' form may not be compatible with every die.

I consider RCBS case lube to be the best myself.

Thanks. I'm not saying your wrong, just that it's the first I've heard of it. But I just started reloading two years back and most of my time has been on a Dillon 550. Everything I know, right or wrong, is to adjust die down till it touches shell holder, then back off a 1/4-1/2 turn. That wasn't nearly good enough today though, so I'm a little puzzled.


Dan

 

[Danattherock]

Send them the die and the 5 cases. You have another set to keep you going. They will fix it or advise you what the issue is

That's the plan. Tomorrow 2nd day. I'm wanting to shoot and reload more than ever. Bought my first rifle rest today and won't be able to use it till I get my reloading equipment right. Shot a few tight groups lately, by my standards, and it has me eager to shoot. Christmas morning as a child eager.


Dan

 

[sundance]

Glad you are sending it back to redding. They charge nothing for their service and $5 for mailing the die back to you with an explanation. Best $5 ever spent. No more beating yourself up as causing the problem.Let us all know what happens.Good luck!

 

[SS427]

I got my first case stuck the other day using a new Redding FL die. Reloaded for years without one getting stuck. I was loading .223 as well. Never bought a stuck case removal tool because I don't make those kinds of mistakes. Right.

As suggested by Redding, and like all my other new dies, I cleaned them really well with gun cleaning solvent. Squeaky clean is a good way to describe them

I had lubed the case with Imperial die wax...just a dab will do you approach. Clearly that was not enough. Very tight going in and rather than get smart and stop, I poured the pressure on, shoved it all the way in, then pulled the rim off trying to remove it. Once I bought the tool and removed the case, I lubed the inside of the die up really good, (something I had never had to do before with new dies) lubed the case with more than a dab, and while tight, I got the case resized and extracted. Seemed like the more cases I resized the easier it was to size them. Go figure. I was on the verge of sending the die back to Redding too. 150 cases later I decided that was not needed.

Doubt this helps, but seems odd both you and I had a similar problem with a new Redding die.

 

[CatShooter]

Glad you are sending it back to redding. They charge nothing for their service and $5 for mailing the die back to you with an explanation. Best $5 ever spent. No more beating yourself up as causing the problem.Let us all know what happens.Good luck!

They do NOT charge to replace a defective die - his die is defective.

 

[mikecr]

Thanks. I'm not saying your wrong, just that it's the first I've heard of it.

Once you start measuring what you're doing, you'll be on your way to finding out things instead of hearing about them.
Sinclair needs to use some of their tools to learn a few things themselves.

 

[Danattherock]

What should I measure?

I've determined proper headspace for this AR-15 with Krieger 20", all wt sorted and highly uniformed Lapua brass is trimmed to a thou on Forster, ogive/base measurements are taken with long/short going to fouler group, COAL at 2.266 yielded a 0.172" group last week, and I'm measuring all empty fired and resized cases, then loaded rounds on a 21st Century concentricity gauge.

What would be the next step?



Dan

 

[Shynloco]

RCBS lube on RCBS pad. 223

Thanks.

That is weird - I use RCBS-II lube and I have use a Redding body die on more 223 cases than you would believe... send the die and some cases to Redding - they will make it right.

Cat is right on and ESPECIALLY about using RCBS LUBE 2 when using a Redding Body Die, regardless of the caliber. In my experiences (and stuck case episodes), I learned the hard way that the lube you use DOES make a difference and the RCBS Lube 2 is all I use anymore (and don't be shy with it either) when using a Redding Body Die. Live and learn I guess. Good luck as those stuck cases are AGGRAVATING as heck.

Alex

 

[Danattherock]

I got my first case stuck the other day using a new Redding FL die. Reloaded for years without one getting stuck. I was loading .223 as well. Never bought a stuck case removal tool because I don't make those kinds of mistakes. Right.

As suggested by Redding, and like all my other new dies, I cleaned them really well with gun cleaning solvent. Squeaky clean is a good way to describe them

I had lubed the case with Imperial die wax...just a dab will do you approach. Clearly that was not enough. Very tight going in and rather than get smart and stop, I poured the pressure on, shoved it all the way in, then pulled the rim off trying to remove it. Once I bought the tool and removed the case, I lubed the inside of the die up really good, (something I had never had to do before with new dies) lubed the case with more than a dab, and while tight, I got the case resized and extracted. Seemed like the more cases I resized the easier it was to size them. Go figure. I was on the verge of sending the die back to Redding too. 150 cases later I decided that was not needed.

Doubt this helps, but seems odd both you and I had a similar problem with a new Redding die.

Not so odd at all. Your brass finished burnishing the inside of the die for them. Problem is, the die should have arrived to you (and me) polished properly and ready to go. While I am no authority, sounds like someone is not finishing the inside of these dies properly. Yours sure as hell didn't expand. You polished it I suspect.

Prior to using mine today I cleaned die like I was preparing to perform surgery. I put a drop or two of oil on a 9 mm bore mop and ran it through afterwards. I then visually inspected the inside of the die with a small LED lamp. Looked GTG.

I have only been Handloading two years, and until today had only one stuck case, which was the first attempt I had ever made reloading. That was also 223, using Hornady One Shot. Never again. I use that now just to smooth out my Dillon 550 loading 9 mm, 10 mm, and 40.


Dan

 

[snert]

No offense intended here, but the inside of Redding dies are hardened, and if brass is burnishing them then that is the hardest brass ever made.

either the die is poorly constructed or your technique is off. Send it back, like they asked, and find out.

 

[Danattherock]

I was trying to think what would make a die work after using it a while, but not right out the gate. Assumed friction from repeated sizings had something to do with it.

Out of curiousity, what could explain his die working after repeated attempts, but not initially? Reason I ask is should I try smearing a bunch of imperial in mine? Fail to see how this would fix anything. But I'm open to suggestion.

Is it normal to back a die off a shell holder one full turn and stick a well lubed highly uniform, prepped Lapua 223 case? Ripped head off kind of stuck. Twice. Die cleaned prior to use.

If that's normal, then I'm wrong, and everything I've read about setting up sizing dies, the Sinclair article I linked which was posted on this Accurate Shooter website, etc. all wrong. Which is possible, just hoping for an explaination so I don't revisit this issue in future.

I have never read or heard anything about setting up a sizing die by putting a case on the shell holder and running it to the top. Then screwing sizing die down till it touches, lowering ram, and gradually lowering die till proper sizing is achieved. Lawrence mentioned this technique earlier, but this is how I set up a standard bullet seating die. Not sizing.

So which way is the right way? I'm all ears.




Below is Sinclair article from this site. Is step two wrong?



December 17th, 2012
Full-Length Sizing Die Set-Up — Tip from Sinclair International
How to Set Up Your Full Length Sizing Die
by Ron Dague, Sinclair International Technician
From Sinclair’s Reloading Press Blog

At Sinclair International, we are often asked for a fool-proof method to set up a full-length sizing die, and begin reloading our fired cases. The method used by many target shooters today is to set up your full length die to closely match your rifle chamber and minimally full-length size your cases –as little as .001″ for bolt-action rifles. I prefer to use this method for all of my bolt-action cartridges.

STEP ONE
I like to de-prime five (5) cases (de-prime only, do not full length resize) and measure from the base of the case to the shoulder with our Sinclair Comparator Body (09-1000) and Bump Gage Insert(09-10200). We refer to this as our headspace measurement. Our Electronic Caliper (#MIC-14) works well and may be pre-set at .000” making this headspace measurement easy to capture. The Sinclair Comparator/Gauge Body and Bump Gage Inserts make this task fairly simple. L.E. Wilson Tools & Gages, Hornady Manufacturing, and RCBS all make similar units to achieve your headspace measurement.

STEP TWO
With your full-length die threaded into your reloading press, loosen the lock ring and run the press ram up toward the full length die with a shell holder in place (with no case). Then, screw the die toward the shell holder until it stops. Back the die out of the press and away from the shell holder one full turn and set the lock ring finger tight.

 

[amlevin]

I got my first case stuck the other day using a new Redding FL die. Reloaded for years without one getting stuck. I was loading .223 as well. Never bought a stuck case removal tool because I don't make those kinds of mistakes. Right.

I never had a stuck case. Years and years of reloading. Then I bought a set of dies that were far more "precision" than what I had been previously using. Figured I knew it all and just gave the new dies a good cleaning, lubed up a case, and proceeded to get it stuck.

Forgot to read the part in the instructions that said "give a good spray of case lube into the new die before using it for the first time.

After removing the stuck case I then did what the instructions said. Sprayed some case lube in it, let it dry, and the very next case sized just perfectly.

It appears that brand new dies that are totally devoid of any case lube don't have enough residual lube to keep the first case or two from sticking unless you have some lube on the walls of the die "AHEAD" of the case.

Whenever I clean my dies now I make sure that they are pre-lubed before sizing any cases. Rather than spray I now use a q-tip with some Unique on it.

 

[Shynloco]

Dan,
For me, whenever I set up my FL Die, Step 2 is only a basic setup for starters and whatever measurement I'm after, the shoulder measurement of my fired casings dictates how much of a turn I back off. I mean if I want a bump of only .002 which I normally want, then a full turn of the lock ring may be too much of a turn. Gotta measure the casing shoulder of a fired casing to determine where you tighten your lock ring. The are no absolutes as far as that goes. Just my thoughts.

Alex

 

[snert]

In the instructions from your Redding set you will see how to clean and prep your die. You should clean it with a bore solvent, dry it, then using Imperial on a q-tip, put some inside and work it around. Using a case that is lubed with Imperial, (after following the adjustment instructions for the die) SLOWLY run a case in. If it starts to stick, back up, check to see where it was sticking (on the case) put some more lube on, go slow, etc repeat. You are conditioning the die...impregnating (and you thought reloading was just a bit of fun) the die walls with lube.

Lawrence was basically accomplishing the same thing by telling you to slowly run the die down (ram up approach) to help you avoid sticking cases.

A few other pointers:

DO NOT OIL YOUR DIES. A bit on the outside will do. but all you need is lube inside.

If you have ultra-sonically cleaned you are more likely to stick cases. Super clean brass sticks to dry (and lightly lubed) steel.

Measure your cases lust above the web. It sounds like your cases are "fat" (scientific term) and for that reason may be sticking.

If, after you have done this, and you stick another case, do what you have been advised to do and send it to Redding with 5 fired cases.

 

[snert]

Not "cases lust"...cases JUST! :-[

snert

 

[Danattherock]

Thanks Melvin!!


Heading to garage to get that second stuck case out. Will start over and apply some imperial inside, after cleaning again. I'm loading for about ten calibers on several machines, but never seen this. My redding body die came in a cardboard box without any setup instructions. Will try to lube inside of die and see what happens. If my third case gets stuck, Redding can take it out. Hah.


Dan


Just occurred to me, your forum name used to be amlevin. It's now Melvin ;D


I'm 6'6" 320 lbs, Big Dan to most, not a name I choose. Everyone here and elsewhere responds to my forum threads as "Dana". Ha ha. Love the net. Not so much. Later Melvin.


-Dana