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Help me choose a elk rifle!

They do initial load development and then go shoot rocks or steel to validate their load.

For sure. Years ago I hunted a lot of Coues Deer in Arizona. I practiced out of season by putting the round cardboard pieces that came in frozen pizza boxes in bushes at different distances (100-300) . I would dry fire at them from various positions....like a lot! In early fall I would live fire at them....it is amazing how much better you can get shooting at a variety of distances using that method. It builds your confidence in your load and shooting ability.
 
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I want to be honest, I did what I did because I was lazy. I was more than 3 miles from my truck, late in the day, I had a 4AM wakeup to make a 6AM flight the next morning. As it turns out I would not be back for 3 years.

Gutting and dragging an above average size buck that I was not going to eat that distance was too much work for my lazy butt.
I had a serious work accident in March one year that nearly came down to an amputation of my bottom half right leg. Two surgeries got it going halfway good. In November with a foot of snow I shot a doe back in about a half mile from the nearest road. I loaded it onto a plastic sled and drug it out a little over half way before the cheap plastic sled broke. Had to drag it the rest of the way crossing a creek and up a steep bank and into my truck bed. You might say I'm a determined old chap.
 
Nothing you can buy will guarantee a shot. You can buy equipment that can do it, but you have to combine the equipment with skill. Shooting, wind calls, dope, tuning, all of it. This simply takes time and effort. Internet opinions are just that. You will get both ends, some want to portray it as easy. Thats false, and bad shots never make the edit on the shows. Others make it seem completely un ethical. Also false. If you put in the work and shoot a lot you will know how far you can make the shot every time, and thats what you need to know. Not our opinions.
 
For your stated ranges, what you have is good.

If your looking to get another rifle, 7mm-08, or 308 should do ya.
Premium bullets.
I’m a 7mm-08 fan and been shooting against my son in law with his 6.5 cm and I’m been very surprised how far my rifle will shoot 750 is my max, not that I haven’t tried and did good but the 08 taken red stags Several times
 
Nothing you can buy will guarantee a shot. You can buy equipment that can do it, but you have to combine the equipment with skill. Shooting, wind calls, dope, tuning, all of it. This simply takes time and effort. Internet opinions are just that. You will get both ends, some want to portray it as easy. Thats false, and bad shots never make the edit on the shows. Others make it seem completely un ethical. Also false. If you put in the work and shoot a lot you will know how far you can make the shot every time, and thats what you need to know. Not our opinions.
And how many guys are practicing shots at 9,000 feet of elevation (when they live at 500) cross canyon ( not your flat 1000 yard range in the summer In OHIO) with winds swirling over the entire shooting lane, at 15 degrees in a 15 mph wind with every scrap of clothing they brought and they are still shivering????? Don’t even factor in that they are so out of shape they can’t get their breath. Hey, they did it on TV why worry!!!! I got’s my $10,000 Gunwerks ripoff rifle, no problem Jose!!!!
 
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I too have been shooting since the 1960s. In the 60s and before, rifles were not as accurate, optics weren't as good, hand loading wasn't as precise, bullets weren't as good, and hunters weren't as practiced shooting long range.

People are terrible at estimating distance. My dad told me about many 200-400 yd shots that he and my grandpa had taken in earlier years, and they always got their deer. They both grew up in the woods with rifles in their hands. My grandpa was a marksmanship instructor in WWI. My dad could shoot pennies out of the air with his 22. When I got a range finder we tested my dads ranging abilities and found he had been overestimating distance by a factor of two. We laughed about that.

People tend to overestimate distance when they are in a wooded area and underestimate distance when they are in are in an open area. I have tested this many times. That's why all the marketing in the day was about "flat shooting" rifles, because hunters often didn't really know how far they were shooting.

I think your time as a range master has skewed your perspective. The guys that are serious about long range hunting don't spend a lot of time at a range that needs a range master. They do initial load development and then go shoot rocks or steel to validate their load.

A friend of mine guides long range hunts. He routinely puts novice hunters on animals at 700-1100 yds and they make one shot kills. He uses a braked 33 XC. Another friend very recently put his 11 year old son on a bear at 575 yds. The kid made a one shot kill using a braked 300 RUM.

I have no idea what your "benchrest team" was. though I am very skeptical. I in fact shoot competitive 1000 yd BR and a bunch of the guys I compete with hunt a lot. They don't take their BR rifles in the woods, they take their purpose built hunting rigs and they hit what they aim at. I would put them
up against ANYONE on the planet in terms of field accuracy. Then again, the type of shooters you see at your range probably don't routinely shoot 2-5" groups at 1000 yds like we do in LRBR. I have no doubt that an F-Class competitor who hunts has no issues shooting at animals at long range either.

So I think your perceptions are hopelessly skewed and there just we just aren't going to agree. Like I said before, long range hunting isn't my thing, but I don't have to condemn something just because it isn't what I prefer to do.
"My dad could shoot pennies out of the air with a .22."
By chance, was his name James Garner and might those pennies have actually been washers?
It's from a hilarious movie!
 
And how many guys are practicing shots at 9,000 feet of elevation (when they live at 500) cross canyon ( not your flat 1000 yard range in the summer In OHIO) with winds swirling over the entire shooting lane, at 15 degrees in a 15 mph wind with every scrap of clothing they brought and they are still shivering????? Don’t even factor in that they are so out of shape they can’t get their breath. Hey, they did it on TV why worry!!!! I got’s my $10,000 Gunwerks ripoff rifle, no problem Jose!!!!
Yup, it's a whole different world from the 1,900ft, 80% humidity of PA.
We can see the air here in the summer.
10,000ft & 30% humidity leaves you gasping just walking in the store for a cup of coffee.

Speaking of humidity, take eye wetting drops!
I noticed while out there at elevation that my eyes were irritated from how dry it is.
 
And how many guys are practicing shots at 9,000 feet of elevation (when they live at 500) cross canyon ( not your flat 1000 yard range in the summer In OHIO) with winds swirling over the entire shooting lane, at 15 degrees in a 15 mph wind with every scrap of clothing they brought and they are still shivering????? Don’t even factor in that they are so out of shape they can’t get their breath. Hey, they did it on TV why worry!!!! I got’s my $10,000 Gunwerks ripoff rifle, no problem Jose!!!!
Thats why I gave the advice I did about how useless internet opinions are. The op is talking about shooting to 400 which is very reasonable on elk sized game, not across a canyon at 9000 ft which would be well over 1000yds. Had he asked about that, Id give different advice.
 
Maybe I'll chip in again. We tend to obsess over equipment when we aren't hunting; it's fun to buy stuff, and think about buying more stuff. When we are hunting, it comes down to fitness and shooting skill in the field. I was probably never a better shot than when I prepared for caribou hunts. No chance of a tree or rock to help provide a rest. Just a Ching sling and shooting sticks. Mostly from sitting position, at gongs at 300 and 400 yards. If there's one problem I see guys make (not folks on here, likely, as from what I can see from my short association with this group, here be some serious snipers), it's that they don't practice from field positions. Unfortunately it will likely become even more common with the cost of ammo.
 
I too have been shooting since the 1960s. In the 60s and before, rifles were not as accurate, optics weren't as good, hand loading wasn't as precise, bullets weren't as good, and hunters weren't as practiced shooting long range.

People are terrible at estimating distance. My dad told me about many 200-400 yd shots that he and my grandpa had taken in earlier years, and they always got their deer. They both grew up in the woods with rifles in their hands. My grandpa was a marksmanship instructor in WWI. My dad could shoot pennies out of the air with his 22. When I got a range finder we tested my dads ranging abilities and found he had been overestimating distance by a factor of two. We laughed about that.

People tend to overestimate distance when they are in a wooded area and underestimate distance when they are in are in an open area. I have tested this many times. That's why all the marketing in the day was about "flat shooting" rifles, because hunters often didn't really know how far they were shooting.

I think your time as a range master has skewed your perspective. The guys that are serious about long range hunting don't spend a lot of time at a range that needs a range master. They do initial load development and then go shoot rocks or steel to validate their load.

A friend of mine guides long range hunts. He routinely puts novice hunters on animals at 700-1100 yds and they make one shot kills. He uses a braked 33 XC. Another friend very recently put his 11 year old son on a bear at 575 yds. The kid made a one shot kill using a braked 300 RUM.

I have no idea what your "benchrest team" was. though I am very skeptical. I in fact shoot competitive 1000 yd BR and a bunch of the guys I compete with hunt a lot. They don't take their BR rifles in the woods, they take their purpose built hunting rigs and they hit what they aim at. I would put them
up against ANYONE on the planet in terms of field accuracy. Then again, the type of shooters you see at your range probably don't routinely shoot 2-5" groups at 1000 yds like we do in LRBR. I have no doubt that an F-Class competitor who hunts has no issues shooting at animals at long range either.

So I think your perceptions are hopelessly skewed and we just aren't going to agree. Like I said before, long range hunting isn't my thing, but I don't have to condemn something just because it isn't what I prefer to do.
The bench rest guys performed as they did because they don't practice practical rifle skills. Controlling torque of powerful rifles in the field conditions is a challenge. I rarely see great range shooters perform well in practical field shooting. I hear all the time about 500 yard hits but it goes quiet when I inquire about rounds fired. The one I like is, I killed a PD at 1,000 yards. The look on the face when I ask if it's the one they aimed at.

Here's an example, 2 years ago the range had a chuck problem, digging hell out of the place. My son and I was on the range I was putting a 300 yard zero on a Pattetn 17 Remington in 06. As we were starting to pack up one popped out between the 200 and 300 back stops. My back was toward the range, I turned, chambered, leaned against the pavillion support post, estimated range, fired and hit in about 3 seconds.

Go into the field, take your survival gear, rifle, compass, shooting sticks, (no bipod), range finder and field glasses. Shoot from the rests you can aquire in field conditions from different positions. Document your accuracy at different ranges. It will make you a better shooter.

I was in the hospital from January to late March with cancer. I just got back on the range with my Aero Precision 6MM ARC, yes I printed 1/2" and 3/4" groups with iron sights at 100 yards FROM A BENCH. My real rifle shooting skills has gone to hell in a hand basket, it'll take until winter before I'm maybe ready.

Of those who make the shots you mention how many practiced regulary? Then spent time practicing before the kill? I bet all of them. How long did the shot setup take? This is a big deal, I can't imagine much more them 10 seconds for me. What equipment did they use, were they hunting alone?

In Pennsylvania there are about 1 million licensed deer hunters. What percentage of those do you think can aquire, range, fire and make clean 1 shot hit at 500 yards, 1,000 yards in the field? .

If it's 10% that can hit at 1,000 yards that's 100,000, at 1 percent it's 10,000 at 1/10th of 1 percent it's 1,000. I'm putting my money on 1/100th of 1 percent about 100. A 500 yard range would improve that percentage but not as much as one imagines. In the entire US there are damn few who can make 1,000 yard hits.

I think you have a very narrow scope of hunters that you're exposed to.

In my day 70+% washed out in training. According to my sons Marine friend up until a few years ago Marine Scout Snipers lost points on their evaluation for taking shots over 400 yards. Of course they're promoting creeping skills but at 400 yards with 7.62 x 51 it's 1 shot 1 kill 100% of the time.
 
Maybe I'll chip in again. We tend to obsess over equipment when we aren't hunting; it's fun to buy stuff, and think about buying more stuff. When we are hunting, it comes down to fitness and shooting skill in the field. I was probably never a better shot than when I prepared for caribou hunts. No chance of a tree or rock to help provide a rest. Just a Ching sling and shooting sticks. Mostly from sitting position, at gongs at 300 and 400 yards. If there's one problem I see guys make (not folks on here, likely, as from what I can see from my short association with this group, here be some serious snipers), it's that they don't practice from field positions. Unfortunately it will likely become even more common with the cost of ammo.
Man I can't agree more, right now my condition sucks. I'd add one thing the winds effects on holding the rifle. The now old concept of mountain rifles helped humping tundra and steady holds.
 
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And how many guys are practicing shots at 9,000 feet of elevation (when they live at 500) cross canyon ( not your flat 1000 yard range in the summer In OHIO) with winds swirling over the entire shooting lane, at 15 degrees in a 15 mph wind with every scrap of clothing they brought and they are still shivering????? Don’t even factor in that they are so out of shape they can’t get their breath. Hey, they did it on TV why worry!!!! I got’s my $10,000 Gunwerks ripoff rifle, no problem Jose!!!!
I hear you! I've hunted some fields in my area over 50 years. Making 250 to 350 yard field position head shots on chucks with my 223 handloads, no problem.

Then the government paid the farmer to terrace all their fields after that they cut a fire block through the timber!! CRAP now the eddy currents on gusty days make me carry my 6MM Remington to reach out to 350 or so.

Training in PA in no way prepares you for high country, winds, cold, tundra, rocks and that feeling you're no longer top of the food chain and that now matter how well armed you may be under prepared!
 
I'm an old bowhunter, have taken an open sight 30/30 lever gun on rifle elk hunts as a backup rifle. Never thought I was under gunned. First rifle hunt with friends, told me to be ready to shoot 500 yards. Ok no problem, I shoot coyote pretty regular out to 400 yards. Went out a couple days early to help scout, as we walked, I ranged areas. Finally found a boulder that was about 275 yards, asked the guys how far. Most guessed 400+. They had never seen a laser rangefinder, told them they all missed the elk. Most everyone I see at rifle "sight in" days at the range would not hit a elk past 300, let alone a deer. Last fall very few attended sight in days, with ammo situation I expect the same this year. Will be in a new state for me this falls rifle elk hunt, I don't expect to have shoot past 200 yards. I watch the wind and thermals, sky lighting, and avoid bumping elk.
 
The bench rest guys performed as they did because they don't practice practical rifle skills. Controlling torque of powerful rifles in the field conditions is a challenge. I rarely see great range shooters perform well in practical field shooting. I hear all the time about 500 yard hits but it goes quiet when I inquire about rounds fired. The one I like is, I killed a PD at 1,000 yards. The look on the face when I ask if it's the one they aimed at.

Here's an example, 2 years ago the range had a chuck problem, digging hell out of the place. My son and I was on the range I was putting a 300 yard zero on a Pattetn 17 Remington in 06. As we were starting to pack up one popped out between the 200 and 300 back stops. My back was toward the range, I turned, chambered, leaned against the pavillion support post, estimated range, fired and hit in about 3 seconds.

Go into the field, take your survival gear, rifle, compass, shooting sticks, (no bipod), range finder and field glasses. Shoot from the rests you can aquire in field conditions from different positions. Document your accuracy at different ranges. It will make you a better shooter.

I was in the hospital from January to late March with cancer. I just got back on the range with my Aero Precision 6MM ARC, yes I printed 1/2" and 3/4" groups with iron sights at 100 yards FROM A BENCH. My real rifle shooting skills has gone to hell in a hand basket, it'll take until winter before I'm maybe ready.

Of those who make the shots you mention how many practiced regulary? Then spent time practicing before the kill? I bet all of them. How long did the shot setup take? This is a big deal, I can't imagine much more them 10 seconds for me. What equipment did they use, were they hunting alone?

In Pennsylvania there are about 1 million licensed deer hunters. What percentage of those do you think can aquire, range, fire and make clean 1 shot hit at 500 yards, 1,000 yards in the field? .

If it's 10% that can hit at 1,000 yards that's 100,000, at 1 percent it's 10,000 at 1/10th of 1 percent it's 1,000. I'm putting my money on 1/100th of 1 percent about 100. A 500 yard range would improve that percentage but not as much as one imagines. In the entire US there are damn few who can make 1,000 yard hits.

I think you have a very narrow scope of hunters that you're exposed to.

In my day 70+% washed out in training. According to my sons Marine friend up until a few years ago Marine Scout Snipers lost points on their evaluation for taking shots over 400 yards. Of course they're promoting creeping skills but at 400 yards with 7.62 x 51 it's 1 shot 1 kill 100% of the time.

I have never seen a great range shooter who wasn't also a good shot in the field. Almost all of the "great range shooters" are those who compete. Guys who shoot in competition know how to shoot well in all kinds of environments. Chances are you don't see these guys much at your range. You'll need to go to a LR BR or F-Class match to find them.

I suspect you are talking about casual "bench shooters". They may also be casual prone shooters. Regardless, they are not "great range shooters" or true "bench shooters." They are just guys having fun at the range or getting ready for a hunt. Their skill level vary significantly.

Realize the forum that you are on. This place is filled with competition shooters from many disciplines. These guys (and gals) know how to shoot.

Controlling the torque of powerful rifles in the field is just not a problem. Controlling torque is more of an issue at the bench when you are trying to shoot groups way smaller than anything needed in the field.

Field shooting just isn't hard. Here are the steps:

1. Develop a consistent load and know your ballistics

2. Know the distance you are shooting

3. Be mindful of the wind

4. For stationary game, get into a stable position--whether prone, seated, leaning against a tree, over a log, etc

5. Don't pull the trigger until the crosshairs (or sights) are aimed where they should be and are dead steady on target

6. Moving game is a little different. The horizontal swing of the rifle reduces vertical variation. The key is to know how much to lead and when to shoot. That takes a little practice, but it isn't terribly hard either. Still, only pull the trigger when the crosshairs or sights are at the right place on the animal

7. There is also the offhand "snap shot". This is good for out to 100, maybe even 200 yds. You simple raise and fire as soon as the cross hairs are on the vitals. I have had great success with this. If you decide to take a few seconds and and hold steady it won't work. We are very stable for a very brief moment when we first put the crosshairs on target. The longer we dwell, the more movement we will get. Once the rifles starts moving around we need to set up almost an offhand competition type hold.

8. Don't try to shoot when you are breathing hard after exertion. Go slow enough when hunting so you are always able to make a shot.

9. Practice a little from the field positions that you expect to be shooting from. That will let you know your effective range form each of those positions. There are two basic field positions, supported and unsupported. Supported is from a bipod, across a log, against a tree, etc and and allows for long range shots. Unsupported is offhand, whether standing or kneeling. Offhand heeds the most practice.
 
well i'm late to the party. but here go's take the o6 and practice i love the 270 , 308 ,708 etc
ammo is expensive now but find a way to practice . bigger is better shots don't always go the
way you want . its not like tv you don't always get to shoot prone.i shot over 50 deer and i've
3 prone . those dam bushes ! i'm get old so lighter sometimes is better for me. bum knee's broke neck.
but why young man would carry a pip squeak cartridge that's for a old person young and petitie .
i practice week for a couple months be for the season. my busy sons don't they miss. so what ever you take on your elk hunt. practice shoot all the positions as much as you can . and you will be find. back straps
for dinner . have fun buddy !
 
I have never seen a great range shooter who wasn't also a good shot in the field. Almost all of the "great range shooters" are those who compete. Guys who shoot in competition know how to shoot well in all kinds of environments. Chances are you don't see these guys much at your range. You'll need to go to a LR BR or F-Class match to find them.

I suspect you are talking about casual "bench shooters". They may also be casual prone shooters. Regardless, they are not "great range shooters" or true "bench shooters." They are just guys having fun at the range or getting ready for a hunt. Their skill level vary significantly.

Realize the forum that you are on. This place is filled with competition shooters from many disciplines. These guys (and gals) know how to shoot.

Controlling the torque of powerful rifles in the field is just not a problem. Controlling torque is more of an issue at the bench when you are trying to shoot groups way smaller than anything needed in the field.

Field shooting just isn't hard. Here are the steps:

1. Develop a consistent load and know your ballistics

2. Know the distance you are shooting

3. Be mindful of the wind

4. For stationary game, get into a stable position--whether prone, seated, leaning against a tree, over a log, etc

5. Don't pull the trigger until the crosshairs (or sights) are aimed where they should be and are dead steady on target

6. Moving game is a little different. The horizontal swing of the rifle reduces vertical variation. The key is to know how much to lead and when to shoot. That takes a little practice, but it isn't terribly hard either. Still, only pull the trigger when the crosshairs or sights are at the right place on the animal

7. There is also the offhand "snap shot". This is good for out to 100, maybe even 200 yds. You simple raise and fire as soon as the cross hairs are on the vitals. I have had great success with this. If you decide to take a few seconds and and hold steady it won't work. We are very stable for a very brief moment when we first put the crosshairs on target. The longer we dwell, the more movement we will get. Once the rifles starts moving around we need to set up almost an offhand competition type hold.

8. Don't try to shoot when you are breathing hard after exertion. Go slow enough when hunting so you are always able to make a shot.

9. Practice a little from the field positions that you expect to be shooting from. That will let you know your effective range form each of those positions. There are two basic field positions, supported and unsupported. Supported is from a bipod, across a log, against a tree, etc and and allows for long range shots. Unsupported is offhand, whether standing or kneeling. Offhand heeds the most practice.
The sample of shooters you're writing about a 1 1/100th of 1% of the hunters. You missed a point or two in your field instructions. Range all the time. Be able to do all the above in 10 seconds or under.

I will say this the shooters you write about are 99.9% of the shooters who won't take a bad shot. That's a good thing.
 
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