help me 2 understand

[xwrench2]

the whole neck tension, diameter thing. i know really, only what i have read in reloading manuals. that the i.d. of the neck should be .001" smaller than the actual bullet size. OK, fine, i get that. but there has to be a lot more to it for precision loading. other wise, there would not be a need for bushings and buttons, and all of the other neat little devices to infinitely change the sizes and tension on those bullets. i would think that the goal is for each neck to have the exact same tension, on every bullet. i understand how turning the o.d. of the neck helps even out that tension. is there a way to actually measure the tension itself on any given cartridge neck? //where i am at: i have been on an accuracy kick for the last 2 years now + or - a few months. i have gotten all of my production rifles to, or under moa loads for each and every one, with standard load equipment. on my best gun, i am nearing 1/2 moa. i was thinking about this neck tension thing, so i got out my dies, and measured all of the expanders. on all 4 of the .30 caliber ones, i got different readings (.3064-.3072"). i know all the bullets read within .0002" of .308, so obviously, i have an issue. plus i think the brass will spring back some after the expander comes thru. my brother is a machinist, and i load for 2 of his 30 caliber rifles, so this will be how i get him to help me make, modify or get what we need. it would be a lot easier if he did not live 215 miles away however.

 

[CaptainMal]

Now you also need to deal with brass thickness and the hardness of the brass.

Dies are a standardized joke. For accuracy you need a die made for the actual chamber/neck dimensions in your gun. With so many variables you actually can't expect a "standard" die to work more than adequately.

You will learn, for as with all forms of education, you don't realize how dumb you are until you start learning things and finding out how much you didn't know.

I did a test with a 30-30 using annealed brass, 160FTX bullets and a bathroom scale. For .003 neck tension I measured in excess of 60 lbs to move the bullets.

Get lots of measuring tools and learn to use them.

 

[BoydAllen]

First of all, tell us what sort of rife you are shooting, what has been done to it, what you shoot off of, what kind of accuracy you are getting, and what you are looking for. There are some hairs that don't need splitting for some rifles.

 

[TheSnake]

Good questions Boyd.

 

[Rtheurer]

Expander Ball?????????? Thats the first thing that gets tossed in the garbage when I get a new die set. A nice K&M expander mandral (http://www.precisionreloading.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=PRE&Category_Code=EXPAND_MAND) for the first time straighting of the dinged up necks from the UPS truck is all you will need it for. After you fire that virgin brass in a factory chamber that neck is WAY bigger than the neck die you will be using to get back down to produce .001 neck tension.

A nice hook shot from the three point line right into the ole file 13....

In all serousness though I dont toss them they ride around in the bottom of my Die Drawer.... Just in case I may need them later for something. Im a damn pack rat.

Check out the link to K&M nice little product, I have been using for years. And to top it off your brother can make what ever size new mandrels you want on the Lathe if you so desire. But its cheaper to buy them than set up the lathe and spend hours on such a small project.

RussT

 

[timeout]

Xwrench, you are in the right place for help. Personally, when Mr. Boyd speaks, I listen. There are so many factors here that you need to consider, I don't know where to start in attempting to help. It would be best if you can find someone close that already has the knowledge and equipment to walk you through it. I too would throw the expander in your die away. I start any new brass with expanding the necks using a K&M or 21st Century expander die and mandrel. As stated, once fired, the neck expander would only be useful if the neck has been flattened or dinged. The way I would determine neck tension is to measure the case neck thickness with a case neck micrometer, double that measurement and add the OD of the bullet. With that number, you can choose how much neck tension you want and use a bushing style die to obtain your desired neck tension. If the brass is work hardened, or the inside of the necks scored, you will never get uniform neck tension/bullet release. Then there is uniform case length to consider. Compressed charge loads can come into play. If you are serious about perfecting your loading methods, I would recommend purchasing the aforementioned neck expander die, a bushing style neck or full length die, Wilson inline seating die, arbor press, inside and outside neck deburring tools. Once you get all that down pat, there is annealing, shoulder bumping, primer pocket uniforming and probably a few other litte tips. Enjoy the ride and loosen the purse strings. You are beginning an enjoyable, satisfying, and some what expensive journey.

 

[xwrench2]

as mentioned in my first post, all of my rifles are pure production rifles. pretty much the way they left the factory. a few of them have been worked on, to get a better trigger. my two Marlin lever guns, i would not try to ask you guys for help with. they are great hunting rifles, but getting 1" 100 yard groups from them has been a tough road. and with the way they are designed, i think all i could ever ask for. my Remington 700BDL 300 win mag is my best rifle. i have gotten the best shots i have ever shot with that gun. i have managed to get several sub moa loads from it, but just barely. i do have one 1/2 moa load for it, but it is way reduced power loads with gas checked cast bullets. the best i have gotten with those is a .486" 5 shot group @ 100 yards. i adjusted the trigger (stock trigger) down to just under 3 pounds. i have had the stock shortened 1" and a good recoil pad installed. and about a year ago, i had to have it re-barreled, due to my own stupidity. it got a new standard Remington take off barrel. 26" long. nothing special about it at all. but when i got it back from that, i decided to try to free float the barrel, which i did, after carefully measuring the stock pressure point height, width, and location. so i could put it back if the accuracy fell off. i had to rework all of my loads, which did not surprise me much. and yes, i can still get sub moa loads when shooting off from the rest. i can not think of anything else that has been done to that gun. the other gun that i would like to be very accurate, is one i have no idea if it can be tweaked or not. it is an H&R Handi Rifle, 223 heavy barrel. when i got it, it had over a 9 pound trigger pull on it. for which i can see no use for. i had a gunsmith do a trigger job to it, which brought it down to just under 5 pounds. which is still higher than i would like. if i had a really good diagram of exactly how that was inside the gun, i would probably take it apart and rework it myself. but i really do not know how it is set up inside of there, so i am not willing to mess with it. i do not know if that gun would make a decent basis for something 1/2 moa capable or not. i can get right around 1 moa a couple just under, but most end up a little over 1 moa). i have used my 300 to hunt everything from deer to woodchuck with. for a long time, it was my only non rimfire long gun. what i have for loading equipment is a lee cast iron press, mostly lee dies (i just did not know better at the time), and some rcbs standard dies. i have an rcbs neck sizer for the 300. i have a lee collet neck sizer for the 223 also. i ma not sure how much difference in accuracy i gained by neck sizing both rifles. but the brass life has more than tripled. the H&R 223 has a pretty large chamber. i have experienced a few cases that have had galled neck i.d.s . so i started running a bronze brush thru each shell after tumbling to make sure any carbon gets removed. the way i stumbled across that was by tearing down so loads that were not working out. i found some of the bullets had been scratched by the necks. that sent up a big red flag, even though i had no idea at that moment. i just knew that could not be good for accuracy. i also have a vld chamfer tool, along with a standard rcbs chamfer tool. a forester trimming lathe. hornady m scale. etc. pretty much nothing special at this time. just standard loading equipment. i can not remember the name of my shooting rest. but it resembles this....http://www.midwayusa.com/product/139952/benchmaster-cadillac-rifle-shooting-rest-steel-black i have made a few modifications to it so it is steadier.

 

[BoydAllen]

Good post. I will make one suggestion that is more rifle related than reloading. Bed the actions of your bolt guns. Anything that has not been floated will have to be, first. From what you have described, I think that if you do some research, and take your time, you can do it yourself. Another thing that I think that you might enjoy is a trigger that is a bit lighter. As you know, you are about at the lower limit with the stock trigger, but with a trigger spring made with smaller diameter wire, you can go lower, without sacrificing safety. There is a fellow who has a site called erniethegunsmith.com that sells various trigger springs and things related to action bedding. You might want to take a look. On the reloading side, I have found that once a reasonably good powder charge has been found, that playing with seating depth can be most productive, as far as accuracy is concerned. I know that for a big game rifle, magazine length may not permit loading bullets to touch the rifling or a few thousandths longer, but even if that is the case, I think that you will find that the amount that a bullet jumps can make a difference in accuracy. Unlike the vast majority of shooters, I work up loads, loading at the range. It saves a lot of time and barrel wear. With a couple of sticks and surveyors' tape downrange to help "see" the wind, and a chronograph, you can get a lot done. I do preliminary testing shooting two shots, because if two look ugly, a third, fourth or fifth isn't going to fix it, and if two look promising, I can always load more. With sporting barrels and large game calibers, I stick to three shot groups, and pay particular attention to determining what barrel condition gives the best cold barrel accuracy.

 

[Rtheurer]

One thing that pops out to me is the fact of how hard it may be to get good groups OFF a bench with the handi rifle. You would think that putting a rifle on front rest on a bench would mean instant small groups.... Its seems easy right? Getting that last little bit of accuracy from a hunting rifle off the bench can be a real bear. These rifles may actually be shooting better than you can shoot off the bench. No disrespect intended what so ever but learning how to shoot off a bench is another thing to look at.

RT

 

[BoydAllen]

Very good point. I see evidence of that, at the range, all the time. In fact, if someone asks for some help, I can often show him how to cut his group size down considerably, using the same equipment and loads.

 

[effendude]

All of the comments above are great advice.

I respectfully suggest that you need to keep your goals realistic. For most hunting situations, one MOA is more than sufficient at reasonable distances and it really is all that can be expected out of a factory rifle, even with some tuning. For years, Weatherby guaranteed 1.5 MOA and no other manufacturers did. I also don't worry about the one best group a rifle can do, but the average of many groups, especially cold bore shots.

I am not trying to discourage you from your quest for the ultimate in accuracy from each of your rifles, but keep in mind the purpose they were built for. For example, the HandiRifle is just that, a handy rifle meant to be carried in a vehicle and provide more accuracy than a pistol. They shoot well for their intended purpose, but they are not built to provide .5 MOA.

As for the .300 Win Mag, I suggest you take it to a skilled gunsmith. Put a NEW barrel on it of whatever brand you wish, true up the action, tune the trigger for better performance, and pillar bed /free float. The $500 or so you will spend will put you miles ahead where you are now. Time is money and wasting time on a rifle that isn't showing promise wastes both time and money. Start with a quality rifle/barrel and then work on loading and accuracy.

I have a friend who has a rifle he affectionately calls the "Money Pit". A Remington .22-250 that wouldn't shoot great when new received a Jewell trigger, a new stock, speedlock firing pin assy, action trueing, bedding and pillaring, muzzle break. Each improvement was done singly. Only he knows how much he spent to improve the performance, but he still isn't satisified. When I heard the tale of woe, I suggested he should have replaced the barrel first. He agreed. Start with a good barrel, it is more important than anything else.

Scott

 

[xwrench2]

i have thought about bedding the rifle several times. i am just a little afraid of screwing it up. and doing the pillar thing really scares me. i guess more of drilling the stock incorrectly than anything. i know that the epoxy will fill in mistakes, but i do like a nice looking rifle also. that is the biggest thing i have against synthetic stocks. to me, they look awful. i do not mean to offend anyone who has one. i just do not like them. if i do bed the rifle, how far down the barrel chanel do i go with the epoxy? all the way to the end? 1/2 way? or just do the action, and leave the barrel free float. one of the reasons that i removed the pressure point from the stock was to get away from the point of impact moving with barrel heat. the way it would normally work is the first 2 shots in warm weather, and 3 shots in cold weather, would be pretty close to each other. after that, the point of impact would jump almost an inch per shot. in a real world hunting situation, that might actually be a good thing. as the animal runs and gains distance on you, the point of impact would go up to help compensate. i do not know if that was something that was designed into the rifle, or if that was just something that happened. i have never had to take a second shot at an animal with that gun. /// as far as being realistic for a hunting rifle, yes, i do know that moa is way better than needed for hunting game. especially here in Michigan, where a 200 yard shot is pretty long, and anything over 300 yards can only happen in a farming community. i just want to be 100% certain that if i hit an animal wrong, or miss it all toghther, it is my doing, and not be able to blame the rifle. i have heard that old story to many times, and every time i think to myself, " yah, right". way, way to many hunters are once a year shooters, and i HATE to see an animal suffer. it is so irresponsible. as to me not being able to shoot off hand as good as i can a bench. hands down, no way i could ever shoot as good free hand as i can from a bench. i think about 95% of all shooters shoot better off from a good steady bench and rest than they ever could off hand. and do not worry about offending me. i have thick skin. is what i am doing necessary? no way. but it is a lot better than what many other people do with their time and money. and the real bottom line is i can not afford a real, super accurate target competition rifle. if i could, i would be asking a lot of different questions instead. trying to get the best out of my guns is something i want to do. it is interesting, keeps me out of trouble, and i can actually see the improvements or not. some people choose to sit in a bar every night, and talk about how good they were. i would rather die trying, than sit and drown my sorrows away in a glass.

 

[BoydAllen]

The fellow whose website that I wrote of in my earlier post has an interesting setup that is quite reasonable in price, for drilling holes for pillar bedding. I believe that it would do the job. Why don't you check it out and get back to us as to your impressions?

In a way, I was quite lucky, when I first got started shooting center fire, there was no way that I could afford much gunsmithing, so if my stock needed work, guess who was going to have to do it? Also, my first rifle was a 788 with a hardwood stock, that needed refinishing, so I had little to worry about.

If I can learn to bed a rifle, so can you. Just take your time, and think it through. You should be fine. I would never invest much effort in load development for a rifle that had factory bedding.