Help 20 vartarg case forming

[Rockchuck]

I'am in the process of forming 20 vt from virgin lake city 223. I have been starting with a redding fl 221fb die the 17m4 form die then to a 20 vt fl die with expander in it . The problem comes when I go to turn the necks. I use the expander mandrel in the expander die but when I go to turn the necks there very tight on the turning mandrel very tight useing a carbide turning mandrel I have turned many neck these are tight case get hot anybody have any ideals why do I need to ream the inside of the necks or something else ???????

 

[TAJ45]

I'll be doing the same thing this summer so will be tagging along here.
What are the case walls measuring before you start to turn necks? When did you trim to length?

 

[L.Sherm]

Try annealing now you've probably got alot of spring back from the forming.

 

[Rockchuck]

Neck wall are running little over .015 and I did anneal then expanded trimmed and attempted to turn

 

[TAJ45]

Re your op sequence, I'd say Sherm is probably spot on w the spring back.

 

[mchees1]

Are you using the right parent case for 20 VarTarg??? All you do is get 221 Rem Fireball brass and neck size down to 20 caliber. I got a bunch of Lapua Fireball brass and necked down in two steps using neck bushings. The .223 case is nowhere near the correct size for 20 VarTarg - it is way to big. Are you actually making 20 Practical? Just a .223 necked down to .204. The 20 Tactical is based on a .223 case also with more sizing work to make. You can see from the pictures that the 20 VarTarg is much smaller than a .223 case.

 

[7315br]

I've run into this neck turning problem being to tight on the K & M pilot occasionally through the years. I've found a very small amount of something like WD-40 on the tip of the neck (after running the case through the expander mandrel) works well on on the neck turning operation in keeping the heat down and over-all smoothness of the cut. I'd admit the easiest way I've found to build 20 VT brass is using Remington 221 Fireball brass, but I've also built it from 223 LC, 223 Lapua, and 204 Winchester brass. Takes more effort, but works out fine. Attached is 20 VT made from Winchester 204 brass. Amazing what a set of Neil Jones bushings can do...LOL! 7315br

 

[ricco1949]

Why are u using the 17M4 form die in between the 221FB FL and the 20VT FL?? What is the neck size of the 17M4 form die?? I suspect u are squeezing the neck further down than needed in your sequence.

I use a 20 VT bump die as an intermediate between the 221FB Form die and 20VT bushing die when forming from LC brass. The 20VT bump die has a larger neck than a conventional FL die thereby smoothing the process

 

[L.Sherm]

The easiest way I have found to make 20VT from 223 cases is to use double ended forming dies from Bullberry it's a breeze.

 

[K9TXS]

I have been using 2 Redding dies to first form the 223 to 221 FB.
1. Form Die #1 (90101)
2. Form & Trim Die (83101)

After using these two dies in this order, I have a very long neck 221 FB case. I give it a rough trim and then trim it to length, chamfer inside case mouth and de-burr outside of case.

Anneal the cases and run them through the Redding body & FL dies to bring them to the 20VT case standards. (I remove the expander from the FL die)

Then I use the expander mandrel from Century 21.
Next I turn the necks on the Century 21 neck turning lathe. Make sure you use a lube on the mandrel.

You're now ready to add primer, powder, etc.
I don't think I left out any steps on this.

There are several steps in this process, but the .223 brass is so cheap plus I'm retired, so it's worth it to me.

Rick in Oregon and RAMOS on this forum help me very much on getting me straight on this. Maybe one of them will chime in here as well.

RAMOS has posted his method several times on this forum and it works really well.

These are the 2 dies and shell holder used when starting.

This is what your case should look like while going through the steps.

 

[Silverfox]

I had a similar problem when I formed .204 Ruger casings down to .17 Remington and tried to turn the necks. Both the regular and carbide turning mandrels were way too tight and the mandrels got hot way too fast. I annealed the casings and that problem disappeared. Maybe you aren't getting your casing necks annealed properly????

 

[michaeljp65]

its easier with 221 fireball, then just run it in your 20VT FL die, turn neck, load and shoot. Simple.

 

[varmintshooter]

I turn the neck before I neck down. The end of the cut ends up shoulder when done this way. Get a mandrel that will expand the neck slightly before turning to prevent the tight fit and then size your case.

 

[Rockchuck]

Yes annealing was the problem thanks guys for all the help it easier to just neck down 221 fb brass just wanted to know how easy or hard it was to form 223 to 20 vt in case 221 fb was to become scarce thanks again

Rockchuck

 

[L.Sherm]

Yes necking down 221 FB brass is easier, but I guess it comes down to what's your time worth. There is some work to making 20VT from 223 but once you get the hang of it not to bad and you got the stuff to form and turn necks. LC 223 makes some pretty good 20VT brass.

 

[bobcat93]

I'am in the process of forming 20 vt from virgin lake city 223. I have been starting with a redding fl 221fb die the 17m4 form die then to a 20 vt fl die with expander in it . The problem comes when I go to turn the necks. I use the expander mandrel in the expander die but when I go to turn the necks there very tight on the turning mandrel very tight useing a carbide turning mandrel I have turned many neck these are tight case get hot anybody have any ideals why do I need to ream the inside of the necks or something else ???????

I've messed around with the 17 fireball quite a bit and had lots of issues and trashed alot of lapua brass..but I got my system now..
If you mess up some cases dont sweat it..there is a learning curve ....just dont pull that trigger till you feel you got it correct .
And even then I shot some messed up cases just Experimental or curiosity reasons..
I probably have 1000$ in dies trying to figure this one out.(for me)
I ended up getting a redding 221 fireball neck bushing full length die.
Then I can just change bushings and presto..finish up in full size 17 fire ball die..
I would try the mech die method with annealing after case forming..but just a little..dont get crazy and make your brass to soft..that is worse then brittle..turn case before fire forming..and properly annealing after fire forming..
That's a little of my findings..maybe it will helpe some one out..I bought the case form dies..waist of money in my opinion ( for my needs)

 

[KillnStick]

Lots of ways to skin the same cat out there. I make 17M4, 20VT & 221FB out of LC and 223 brass a lot. My way is a Redding 221 form & trim die, cut the long neck, neck turn to about .012 run brass into a 20 cal double die from Bull Berry. Finish with the 20VT FL die. That’s my .02.

 

[Bill K]

That is one thing nice about the 20 VarTarg, case's can be made from 223 case's very easy with the couple of forming dies from Redding. But easiest way is to use 221 fire ball case's necked down in one or two steps.