• This Forum is for adults 18 years of age or over. By continuing to use this Forum you are confirming that you are 18 or older. No content shall be viewed by any person under 18 in California.

Heaviest Bullet That Will Work In 1:12 308

Hoot

Silver $$ Contributor
With all due respect to theory, how heavy (long) have you personally gone successfully with a 29-30 inch 1:12 308?
I've already done 150 fmj's (1.12 long) and will be trying 155gr (1.224 long) Palma's tomorrow with Varget. I have 168 AMAX's waiting in the wings. Not sure how much higher weight (longer) bullets I can entertain. Good selection of powders at my disposal. Looking to milk the entire 29" out of the barrel in terms of burn rate. Brass is new or 1-F Lapua SRP. Have turned some to ,014 to compare to no-turn. Been forming them with the 150 FB fmj pulls which have surprised me accuracy wise at 100 yds.

Thanks,

Hoot
 
A friend shooting Sierra 175 gr MK factory moly coated from a Gen-1 FN SPR with a 1:12. Four different loads and it groups sub 1/2 MOA. Greenhill formula calculates 1:11.35 for a 175.
 
I've shot the 185 Juggernauts out of a 12-twist barrel, and the 200.20Xs out of an 11-twist barrel. Doing so may have given up a small amount of the intrinsic BC, however, the gyroscopic stability and precision was just fine.

My suggestion would be to give the Berger 168 Hybrid a look. It has a very high BC for its weight, and thus is one of the few bullets I have come across where you can actually drive it fast enough to overcome the BC deficit as compared to the next higher weight class of bullets or so (i.e. 185 Juggernauts). With H4895, the 168 Hybrids should tune in at somewhere around 2900 fps from a 30" pipe. Pointed, they will keep pace with, if not outperform, Juggernauts running at 2725-ish.

In addition to twist rate, freebore is another consideration. Rifles with 12-twist barrels (unless they're custom chambered) often do not have sufficient freebore to seat bullets in the 185 gr weight class and above optimally far out in the neck, so loss of effective case volume and excessive pressure can sometimes become an issue. The 168 Hybrid seats just fine in a chamber with as little as 0.085" fb, similar to something like a 175 SMK. However, the BC of the 168 Hybrid is almost 10% higher than a 175 SMK, which is a noticeable difference/improvement without even taking the increased velocity of the lighter bullet into consideration.
 
Last edited:
With all due respect to theory, how heavy (long) have you personally gone successfully with a 29-30 inch 1:12 308?
I've already done 150 fmj's (1.12 long) and will be trying 155gr (1.224 long) Palma's tomorrow with Varget. I have 168 AMAX's waiting in the wings. Not sure how much higher weight (longer) bullets I can entertain. Good selection of powders at my disposal. Looking to milk the entire 29" out of the barrel in terms of burn rate. Brass is new or 1-F Lapua SRP. Have turned some to ,014 to compare to no-turn. Been forming them with the 150 FB fmj pulls which have surprised me accuracy wise at 100 yds.

Thanks,

Hoot
Altitude will matter if trying heavy with a 12 twist. Knew one guy that stabilized 190 SMKs to 1000 yards in his 12 twist but he lived in Colorado. 178 Amax will work at 1000' ASL.
 
With all due respect to theory, how heavy (long) have you personally gone successfully with a 29-30 inch 1:12 308?
I've already done 150 fmj's (1.12 long) and will be trying 155gr (1.224 long) Palma's tomorrow with Varget. I have 168 AMAX's waiting in the wings. Not sure how much higher weight (longer) bullets I can entertain. Good selection of powders at my disposal. Looking to milk the entire 29" out of the barrel in terms of burn rate. Brass is new or 1-F Lapua SRP. Have turned some to ,014 to compare to no-turn. Been forming them with the 150 FB fmj pulls which have surprised me accuracy wise at 100 yds.

Thanks,

Hoot
image.jpgimage.jpg
 
How far are you shootin?

At least 90% of this stability conversation only applies once you get past 600 yards, and really out past 800 yds. When we are talking about fully stabilized we're discussing marginal loss of BC due to bullet wobble, which matters at 1000 yards but you'll never notice inside of 600.

The first thing a shooter who comes to the interwebz needs to learn is whether information correct or otherwise, applies to their application.

JBM Ballistics trajectory calculator will help you play with bullet numbers at distance,

Berger twist rate calculator will let you play with bullets and the effect of twist rate vs effective BC.

Out to 600 yds, i'd shoot 155s at the Palma load that is pushing the range of 3000± fps until the barrel was worn out. (you can search a while and find out what the Palma guys run, but it's in the range of 46gr of Varget under a 155)
 
In my early F class days i followed Benchresters idea of the slowest twist possible for the greatest accuracy. The belief being that the smallest groups gave the largest wind margin error. This was supported by examples John Lewis IBS 600yard world record group shooting 155 scenars in a 14 twist. Russel Simmons in F class also used 14t and 155s to win 2009 F class championships. With those excellent examples i followed the slow twist theory.

14 twist I shot 155 Scenars and 185 Bergers juggernauts out to 1,000... 187 BiB shot the tightest groups but only out to 900yards and then it was minute of target at 1,000.

I moved onto a faster barrel 12 twist shooting both the 185 juggernauts and 200 Berger hybrids. I was very aware of the outside temperature when shooting the 200 hybrids during a match. 200 hybrids in a 12twist have an SG of 1.13, with enviro conditions of 59degrees at 0 ASL

I have since moved on to the theory of having a bullet barrel combination with an SG 1.5 but am examining a hybrid

Short answer I have shot 1,000s of 200 Berger hybrids out of a 12twist 32" barrel successfully out to 1,000
My OAL 200 hybrids in a 308win case was 3.10
Cheers
Trevor
 
Well Berger's is very conservative for sure. The 185 Bergers do stabilize in a 12 twist at 1000' elevation.

When contemplating the 185gn Juggernaut, consider that when ballistics guru Bryan Litz who is responsible for Berger's stability calculator was a top sling shooter, he won a lot of matches and a major US series firing the Juggernaut from a 13-inch twist barrel. At the time, he considered 12 as ideal for the bullet in 308 and intended to use that on next rebarreling. (A 12-twist barrel gives this bullet 1.43 Sg at 2,800 fps MV in 'standard' ballistic conditions.)

This was a few years before research showed an optimal Sg value of 1.5 which has since seen a widespread reappraisal of practices in this field. At least one generation of long-range competitive shooters had previously relied on Miller's Twist Rule calculations and the then recommended optimal Sg value of 1.4.

Barrel/bullet combinations producing yet lower Sg values work perfectly well too in stabilising bullets well enough to produce excellent groups particularly at shorter distances. For historical reasons UK and British Commonwealth sling shooters ('Target Rifle' is the official name for the discipline) exclusively fired 7.62mm Nato issued ammunition for many generations. Even in its Radway Green (British ammunition factory, now privatised and part of British Aerospace) 'Green Spot' 146gn FMJBT so-called sniper version, this was dire quality compared to the worst production batch that Berger Bullets say has turned out in its entire history, so rifles were in effect substantially modified to wring the best out of a poor product. The two main 'fixes' were very undersize internal dimensions, and the very slowest twist rate that would work. (When you have poorly balanced bullets due to inconsistent jacket thickness, the higher the rotational rate the greater the degree of dispersion in flight.) The standard rate used was one turn in 14". Even when the discipline moved onto 155gn sniper ammunition, many competitors stuck with 14 twist barrels and they shot extremely well out to 1,000 yards on Bisley's Stickledown Range, a low lying venue so no help in stabilisation from significant altitude. (Nevertheless 13 twist barrels gradually took over as in the US and remain the most widely used rate today for those shooting under ICFRA rules limiting bullets to less than 156gn weight.)

I acquired such a 'TR' rifle some years ago with a (very!) well-used stainless Lothar Walther 14 twist barrel that still shot very well despite a massively extended throat from thousands of rounds through it. (I soon discovered it was one of the very 'tight' barrels too when usually mild 308 handloads turned out to be over-pressure!) It shot the 168s from Speer, Hornady and Sierra extremely well on a range just under 1,000 ft ASL, likewise the 175 Sierra MK at relatively low MVs. It continued to shoot the original shorter Sierra MK (2155) superbly which its previous owner had shot through it for many years. These bullets all produce Sg values hovering around the previous norm, ie 1.4 in 14 twist at long-barrel 308 MVs from mild loads. So 12-twist is super stabilisation by comparison and easily copes with much longer/heavier bullets. As @Ned Ludd points out, you incur a small BC loss penalty though in many cases. I doubt if a competent shooter would notice the difference, and quite obviously Bryan Litz (a super-competent shooter) didn't when he was winning matches all over the place 10 years ago with a theoretically under-stabilised 185 Juggernaut.
 
Thanks to all who responded. First off, I'm sitting here typing this at 1030ft ASL.

It appears that I will have some additional bullets to try after finishing optimizing the 155 and 168's that I have on hand. Hopefully some of those excellent example bullets you all cited, will be available then. I have lots of 180gr hunting bullets but nothing in the way of target bullets above 168gr.

You all have given me lots of food for thought.

Hoot
 
When contemplating the 185gn Juggernaut, consider that when ballistics guru Bryan Litz who is responsible for Berger's stability calculator was a top sling shooter, he won a lot of matches and a major US series firing the Juggernaut from a 13-inch twist barrel. At the time, he considered 12 as ideal for the bullet in 308 and intended to use that on next rebarreling. (A 12-twist barrel gives this bullet 1.43 Sg at 2,800 fps MV in 'standard' ballistic conditions.)

This was a few years before research showed an optimal Sg value of 1.5 which has since seen a widespread reappraisal of practices in this field. At least one generation of long-range competitive shooters had previously relied on Miller's Twist Rule calculations and the then recommended optimal Sg value of 1.4.

Barrel/bullet combinations producing yet lower Sg values work perfectly well too in stabilising bullets well enough to produce excellent groups particularly at shorter distances. For historical reasons UK and British Commonwealth sling shooters ('Target Rifle' is the official name for the discipline) exclusively fired 7.62mm Nato issued ammunition for many generations. Even in its Radway Green (British ammunition factory, now privatised and part of British Aerospace) 'Green Spot' 146gn FMJBT so-called sniper version, this was dire quality compared to the worst production batch that Berger Bullets say has turned out in its entire history, so rifles were in effect substantially modified to wring the best out of a poor product. The two main 'fixes' were very undersize internal dimensions, and the very slowest twist rate that would work. (When you have poorly balanced bullets due to inconsistent jacket thickness, the higher the rotational rate the greater the degree of dispersion in flight.) The standard rate used was one turn in 14". Even when the discipline moved onto 155gn sniper ammunition, many competitors stuck with 14 twist barrels and they shot extremely well out to 1,000 yards on Bisley's Stickledown Range, a low lying venue so no help in stabilisation from significant altitude. (Nevertheless 13 twist barrels gradually took over as in the US and remain the most widely used rate today for those shooting under ICFRA rules limiting bullets to less than 156gn weight.)

I acquired such a 'TR' rifle some years ago with a (very!) well-used stainless Lothar Walther 14 twist barrel that still shot very well despite a massively extended throat from thousands of rounds through it. (I soon discovered it was one of the very 'tight' barrels too when usually mild 308 handloads turned out to be over-pressure!) It shot the 168s from Speer, Hornady and Sierra extremely well on a range just under 1,000 ft ASL, likewise the 175 Sierra MK at relatively low MVs. It continued to shoot the original shorter Sierra MK (2155) superbly which its previous owner had shot through it for many years. These bullets all produce Sg values hovering around the previous norm, ie 1.4 in 14 twist at long-barrel 308 MVs from mild loads. So 12-twist is super stabilisation by comparison and easily copes with much longer/heavier bullets. As @Ned Ludd points out, you incur a small BC loss penalty though in many cases. I doubt if a competent shooter would notice the difference, and quite obviously Bryan Litz (a super-competent shooter) didn't when he was winning matches all over the place 10 years ago with a theoretically under-stabilised 185 Juggernaut.
I'm sure the 12 isn't ideal and BC loss is happening with the 185 no doubt. I personally never shot them in a 12 twist but a couple guys in our club shoot it with 12 twist guns and they do ok with them. They mostly prefer the 175s.
 
I've run Hornady 208's in a 12 tw. They were stable to 880 yds @ 1242 ASL...This was limited to length of range.
 
They mostly prefer the 175s.

I'm told that many sling shooters find the 185's recoil and torque a bit much and shoot better with the 175s external ballistics aside. That's assuming you're referring to this type of shooting - F/TR is a very different matter. Even so, when I shot F/TR I found I could shoot better with 155s than the heavies and ended up like @Ned Ludd with the Berger 168gn Hybrid as a superbly performing compromise.
 
Palma shooters have been shooting 155's in 13 twist barrels since the dawn of time. My 12 twist stabilizes 175's just fine.
 
I'm told that many sling shooters find the 185's recoil and torque a bit much and shoot better with the 175s external ballistics aside. That's assuming you're referring to this type of shooting - F/TR is a very different matter. Even so, when I shot F/TR I found I could shoot better with 155s than the heavies and ended up like @Ned Ludd with the Berger 168gn Hybrid as a superbly performing compromise.
I can confirm that 185's are pretty rough on the shooter when shot from a sling. The change to 155's was night and day in my experience.
 
I'm told that many sling shooters find the 185's recoil and torque a bit much and shoot better with the 175s external ballistics aside. That's assuming you're referring to this type of shooting - F/TR is a very different matter. Even so, when I shot F/TR I found I could shoot better with 155s than the heavies and ended up like @Ned Ludd with the Berger 168gn Hybrid as a superbly performing compromise.
It's all I shoot in mine. 168s are the best compromise IMO
 
Depends on a lot of important factors....A 12 twist on the edge of stability at one temperature, altitude, velocity, humidity, may become unstable if any of the conditions change... plus you lose your high BC numbers, the reason your trying to shoot those long bullets in the first place. Go with the twist that always stablizes your bullets in any condition or altitude you are likely to encounter. All my new 308s are fast twist ... AR10, 10 twist but would like 9 twist... bolt guns 9 And 8 twist...I prefer 8, or 9 twist for the new high BC bullets. Fast twist improves the BC according to Hornady and shoots the light bullets well too. Win, win...
But for a 12 twist shoot a 155, 168, and maybe 175, area that your rifle loves at a velocity you can live with... that was 155 Lapua Senar for my 12 twist 27" barrel ...stable and accurate to 1400 yards. Seems we all chase the high BC for an edge, but when I was young those now low BC bullets used to shoot pretty good way out there ...when my eyes were good, and ... I practiced alot with a consistent load of what the barrel liked, within the appropriate twist, not on the edge of stability... I tried that in the 12 twist when the 208s came out...very accurate at 100, but at 800 the accuracy was gone...back to the 155s and back in the groove of consistent accuracy, all the way out to 1400 yds.
 
Interestingly enough, I decided to rerun the Berger calculator for the 185gn Juggernaut for 12-twist in my shooting conditions. When I shot the 185 Juggernaut in F/TR years ago in the bullet's early days in the UK (and when they were actually available most of the time, a happy situation that is long gone here as in the US), I shot them from a 10-twist at c. 2,830 fps MV, so stability was never an issue.

I do actually have a very good Bartlein 12-twist barrel I intend to put onto a rifle I'm returning to 308 Win with. I say 'very good' as apart from Bartleins generally being more than 'very good' this is a gain-twist job that was ordered and supplied as one of a pair some years ago. Its twin went to Stuart Anselm, a top UK rifle builder, gunsmith and F/TR competitor who won the class in the annual European F-Class Championships meeting against well over 100 top competitors from right across Europe that year as well as shooting for the winning F/TR team in those matches - 9 matches covering 800-1,000 yards with a preponderance in round counts to the 1,000 yard stages. His bullet was the 185gn Juggernaut and this is low lying Bisley at relatively low temperatures.

(I'm putting my blank onto a rifle as I have very large numbers of 155-175 bullets, brass, primers and powders for 308 Win that I otherwise haven't much use for, and although I have 308 heavies too, I shoot them in a 9.5-twist SAUM in F-Open so have no need for a faster twist 308 Win there.)

Anyway, just out of interest, I reran the calculator for the Juggernaut. 12-twist; 2,825 fps MV, 59-deg F and 980 fps ASL for my primary range. Sg = exactly 1.50, ie fully stable and full BC. I was expecting something in the low to mid 1.4s on past experience, so it seems Berger has changed something either in the nominal bullet OAL or its stability calculator, or more likely my memory is playing up (again). In fact as it's a gain-twist barrel from 1 in 12 something to 1 in 11.8, the calculator says 1.55, so a little more in the 'stable' range.

Not that this is of direct use to me as I gave away all my remaining Juggernauts to friends when I stopped shooting F/TR and I've no intention of buying any more even if I found some for sale.
 
My short version:

Not sure if you are talking about FTR or just .308? Shot 155 Scenars and 185 Jugg's in a 12.25 actual twist in FTR for a while and they did both pretty good at 600 yards. Not as good as the following barrel in 1/10 with a 200-20X at LR.
 

Upgrades & Donations

This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.


Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.

You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.


To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.

Forum statistics

Threads
165,334
Messages
2,193,484
Members
78,832
Latest member
baconbag
Back
Top