butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
Don't see them in the comps that I shoot in and if I saw one at our club, I would avoid it.
Hearing protection question
- Thread starter campman08
- Start date
I shot a 338 Lapua Mag at the range and it had blown over a spotting scope and bipod on a neighboring bench at the range. It IS loud, but safe for the ears in my estimation with plugs AND muffs. No way would I fire that thing (Savage) without double protection.
From the Armalite AR-30 rifle manual. Bold is my emphasis.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Verify range safety. Make sure that the rifle is pointed in a safe direction, towards a known,
adequate backstop. Make sure that everybody within 100 yards knows that the rifle is about to
be fired and protects their vision and hearing.
WARNING: THIS FIREARM IS EXTREMELY LOUD DUE TO THE LARGE
CARTRIDGE AND THE EFFICIENCY OF THE MUZZLE BRAKE. WEAR DOUBLE
HEARING PROTECTION: FOAM PLUGS AND GOOD QUALITY HEARING
PROTECTION MUFFS. ASSURE THAT SPECTATORS AND OTHER SHOOTERS
WITHIN 100 YARDS OF THE FIRING POINT ARE ALSO WEARING HEARING
PROTECTION. YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR WARNING THEM THAT YOU ARE
ABOUT TO FIRE, AND THAT THE SHOT WILL BE LOUD!
WARNING: AVOID THE MUZZLE BLAST. THE RIFLE’S MUZZLE BRAKE
WORKS BY DIVERTING MUZZLE GASSES TOWARDS THE REAR. IT IS LOUD
AND CAN STIR UP DEBRIS FROM THE GROUND! BOTH FIRERS AND
SPECTATORS SHOULD WEAR EYE AND EAR PROTECTION. EVEN WEARING
PROTECTION, SPECTATORS SHOULD NOT STAND WITHIN 25 YARDS OF THE
RIFLE AND SHOULD BE ESPECIALLY CAREFUL NOT TO STAND IN THE AREA
30 TO 90 DEGREES TO EITHER SIDE OF THE RIFLE. THE BEST PLACE TO BE IS
DIRECTLY TO THE REAR OF THE RIFLE, SHOOTING IT.
From the Armalite AR-30 rifle manual. Bold is my emphasis.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Verify range safety. Make sure that the rifle is pointed in a safe direction, towards a known,
adequate backstop. Make sure that everybody within 100 yards knows that the rifle is about to
be fired and protects their vision and hearing.
WARNING: THIS FIREARM IS EXTREMELY LOUD DUE TO THE LARGE
CARTRIDGE AND THE EFFICIENCY OF THE MUZZLE BRAKE. WEAR DOUBLE
HEARING PROTECTION: FOAM PLUGS AND GOOD QUALITY HEARING
PROTECTION MUFFS. ASSURE THAT SPECTATORS AND OTHER SHOOTERS
WITHIN 100 YARDS OF THE FIRING POINT ARE ALSO WEARING HEARING
PROTECTION. YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR WARNING THEM THAT YOU ARE
ABOUT TO FIRE, AND THAT THE SHOT WILL BE LOUD!
WARNING: AVOID THE MUZZLE BLAST. THE RIFLE’S MUZZLE BRAKE
WORKS BY DIVERTING MUZZLE GASSES TOWARDS THE REAR. IT IS LOUD
AND CAN STIR UP DEBRIS FROM THE GROUND! BOTH FIRERS AND
SPECTATORS SHOULD WEAR EYE AND EAR PROTECTION. EVEN WEARING
PROTECTION, SPECTATORS SHOULD NOT STAND WITHIN 25 YARDS OF THE
RIFLE AND SHOULD BE ESPECIALLY CAREFUL NOT TO STAND IN THE AREA
30 TO 90 DEGREES TO EITHER SIDE OF THE RIFLE. THE BEST PLACE TO BE IS
DIRECTLY TO THE REAR OF THE RIFLE, SHOOTING IT.
I had custom molded plugs made a Camp Perry one year and they turned out to be a disappointment. They didn't perform well and offered noticeably less protection that did the Max-1 plugs Forum Boss showed a while back - when I went back the following year, I looked up these same guys and had them redo another set with the same disappointing result.
I have significant hearing loss in both ears and bad tinnitus in one ear but now while wearing Max -1 plugs and Peltor Tac Sport muffs (upgraded gel cushions), I can hear range commands and have a conversation while in the pits. I've been using the plugs and muff combo for quite a while, but the electronic muffs is a recent change. I wished I had changed to electronics years ago.
I have significant hearing loss in both ears and bad tinnitus in one ear but now while wearing Max -1 plugs and Peltor Tac Sport muffs (upgraded gel cushions), I can hear range commands and have a conversation while in the pits. I've been using the plugs and muff combo for quite a while, but the electronic muffs is a recent change. I wished I had changed to electronics years ago.
Old Navy
Gold $$ Contributor
I had to give up shooting IHMSA for this same reason. When I used plugs or muffs under our covered lines I was jumpy. When I doubled up (big difference) I could not hear the range commands. I have been wearing aids for almost ten years. What little I have left I plan to keep. I always double up now. Later! Frankbutchlambert said:
BoydAllen said:
This is exactly why I was concerned about going from an nrr 29 to nrr 22. As someone with tinnitus already, I don't want to make things worse. i use earplugs in the pits and they work great, but prefer the piece of mind high rated over the ear muffs provide no matter my head motion when on the line. I'll definitely use both if someone comes around with a .330 or a .50. Right now, they aren't allowed on the range I go to - or at least I've never seen them.
First, all my career I learned it is safer to ignore Anecdotal Evidence. that is, information from my friends brother who....
I spent the last of my career in the hearing industry. I'm a Electronic Engineer and I took the graduate program in Audiology at San Jose State University. I worked for Etymotic Research, who do research and product development for the ear. I also have a hearing aid dispensers license.
So, what is the NRR specification? First, one must be careful in interpreting the dB. When you are talking sound level, the unit is SPL or Sound Pressure Lever, and it is a unit of pressure where 0 dB is the threshold of hearing. As it is a pressure, 6 dB is equal to an increase or decrease in SPL of 2:1 or 1/2.
20 dB is a factor of 10. If we are discussing sound energy, then the dB is a unit of energy and now 3 dB is double or 1/2 the energy and 10 dB is a factor of 10. But sound energy is usually reserved for research and SPL is used in practical items like hearing aids or ear plugs.
Why NRR? Well, if we take a pair of "yellow foamie" ear plugs, the yellow foam rods you roll up tightly between your index finger and thumb and quickly insert into the ear canal till it is in so far you don't think you will be able to get it out! This will yield a noise protection of close to 40 dB, and that is a factor of 100! The limit of around 40 dB is set not by the ear plug, but your mastoid bone. Your mastoid bone will transfer noise into your inner ear at slightly less than 40 dB below ambient noise. But! Most people don't insert the yellow foamie correctly, some even put it sideways in the concha of the ear, the bowl of the outer ear! So, what OSHA did was force manufacturers to measure their ear plugs, then see how folks could mis-use them and measure the attenuation mis-used. The NRR is the typical 40 dB (for a yellow foamie) minus the decrease in protection with improper insertion. That is why some ear plugs that offer fantastic protection but have a less than stellar NRR rating of, maybe 22 dB.
This is why I don't use ear muffs! Properly fitted muffs are nearly as good as yellow foamies, but the consumer has no easy way of knowing how well it is engineered and constructed. Plus, they can easily be mis-worn! Plus, they get in the way of most competition guns!
Some muffs contain microphones and amplifiers that are actually compressor amplifiers. That is an excellent type amplifier to use in a hearing aid (and they are in 80% of fittings) as well as electronic blast protectors as they allow you to hear soft sounds like the guy next to you talking, yet lower gain for louder sounds like many guns firing down the range. And, when your or your neighbors gun fires, the amplifier saturates and cannot produce more than about 115 dB SPL at the ear canal which is adequate protection when the noise is an impulse like a gun shot. This is all true, if the muff or blast protector has 35 dB or more attenuation with the battery turned off.
What I do wear when shooting, and I shoot a lot with practice and competition in F Class and BR shooting, is a pair of Etymotic Blast Protectors. I know Etymotic is a quality company and believes in lab tests instead of anecdotal evidence. If they specify something, you can take it to the bank! And, I believe the amplifier in their units is the best quality from a fidelity and stability point of view because of the simple fact,,,,I Designed It!
Their blast protector has been clinically tested and proven to maintain situational awareness in a battle environment. That means, they do not detract from the fidelity required to accurately identify the source of a sound and it's exact direction!
Try that with your $15 muffs!
I spent the last of my career in the hearing industry. I'm a Electronic Engineer and I took the graduate program in Audiology at San Jose State University. I worked for Etymotic Research, who do research and product development for the ear. I also have a hearing aid dispensers license.
So, what is the NRR specification? First, one must be careful in interpreting the dB. When you are talking sound level, the unit is SPL or Sound Pressure Lever, and it is a unit of pressure where 0 dB is the threshold of hearing. As it is a pressure, 6 dB is equal to an increase or decrease in SPL of 2:1 or 1/2.
20 dB is a factor of 10. If we are discussing sound energy, then the dB is a unit of energy and now 3 dB is double or 1/2 the energy and 10 dB is a factor of 10. But sound energy is usually reserved for research and SPL is used in practical items like hearing aids or ear plugs.
Why NRR? Well, if we take a pair of "yellow foamie" ear plugs, the yellow foam rods you roll up tightly between your index finger and thumb and quickly insert into the ear canal till it is in so far you don't think you will be able to get it out! This will yield a noise protection of close to 40 dB, and that is a factor of 100! The limit of around 40 dB is set not by the ear plug, but your mastoid bone. Your mastoid bone will transfer noise into your inner ear at slightly less than 40 dB below ambient noise. But! Most people don't insert the yellow foamie correctly, some even put it sideways in the concha of the ear, the bowl of the outer ear! So, what OSHA did was force manufacturers to measure their ear plugs, then see how folks could mis-use them and measure the attenuation mis-used. The NRR is the typical 40 dB (for a yellow foamie) minus the decrease in protection with improper insertion. That is why some ear plugs that offer fantastic protection but have a less than stellar NRR rating of, maybe 22 dB.
This is why I don't use ear muffs! Properly fitted muffs are nearly as good as yellow foamies, but the consumer has no easy way of knowing how well it is engineered and constructed. Plus, they can easily be mis-worn! Plus, they get in the way of most competition guns!
Some muffs contain microphones and amplifiers that are actually compressor amplifiers. That is an excellent type amplifier to use in a hearing aid (and they are in 80% of fittings) as well as electronic blast protectors as they allow you to hear soft sounds like the guy next to you talking, yet lower gain for louder sounds like many guns firing down the range. And, when your or your neighbors gun fires, the amplifier saturates and cannot produce more than about 115 dB SPL at the ear canal which is adequate protection when the noise is an impulse like a gun shot. This is all true, if the muff or blast protector has 35 dB or more attenuation with the battery turned off.
What I do wear when shooting, and I shoot a lot with practice and competition in F Class and BR shooting, is a pair of Etymotic Blast Protectors. I know Etymotic is a quality company and believes in lab tests instead of anecdotal evidence. If they specify something, you can take it to the bank! And, I believe the amplifier in their units is the best quality from a fidelity and stability point of view because of the simple fact,,,,I Designed It!
Their blast protector has been clinically tested and proven to maintain situational awareness in a battle environment. That means, they do not detract from the fidelity required to accurately identify the source of a sound and it's exact direction!
Try that with your $15 muffs!
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
Are you saying that you think that the range that you go to has a rule against wearing plugs and muffs at the same time, using double coverage? I seriously doubt that! I think that you need to do what gives you the protection that you need to protect your hearing, regardless of what others do. If you have trouble hearing range commands with double coverage, use electronic muffs with the plugs. That will solve the problem. You can not rely on the standard of does it make you uncomfortable to judge your needs for protection. That is because hearing loss is cumulative.
Read my explanation again.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
Oh yea, I'll run right out and buy a pair of those $500 electronic ear plugs. Hold your breath on that one. Just to correct something that you seemed to be saying about the content of this thread, the information that I linked to was not anecdotal. Furthermore, anyone that I know can readily discern the difference between single and double coverage. Those of us who are not professionally trained in this field, can somehow manage to find our way through various kinds of technical information, and make logical choices based on our research.
Unfortunately, the "double coverage" just masks the advantages of the compression amplifier in the electronic muffs. That makes the muffs a further waste of your precious dollars.
By the way, what did you pay for that new scope you bought? And your hearing isn't worth $500? Actually, the street price will be way less.
By the way, what did you pay for that new scope you bought? And your hearing isn't worth $500? Actually, the street price will be way less.
PLEASE USE BOTH PLUGS AND MUFFS,pardon the caps but this is probably the most important decision of your life.I use either my custom molded or the yellow foamies under electronic muffs.My wife will bitch about my hearing for the rest of my life,the Teeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee description is one of the better descriptions I've heard,no pun.I used an M-60 while sitting next to a 1830 cu.in.radial engine in my helicopter while I was a young Marine with no other option.Read about tinnitus,scary shit.People have paid to have the nerves cut to the ears:half of those guys used a .45 ear cleaner later.B.Ohio posted a great link,read it and then read it again. Tom.... And Boyd the $25 Caldwells @ Midway are cheap enough to buy 2 spares for the cost of loading 2 boxes of ammo.
normmatzen said:
Norm, congrats on designing a product that seems to have some merit. And I don't have a problem with you trying to pitch it on this Forum. I do have a problem with you overlooking or ignoring or rejecting a FACT: wearing ear plugs and ear muffs simultaneously offers more protection than wearing either by itself.
As to suggesting that Butch or any of us don't value our hearing, well that's out of line. In fact, if a shooter touches off a rifle without ascertaining that everybody nearby has their hearing protection on, then that shooter has his head up his a$$ or a bystander's boot soon to follow.
As good as some of the electronic stuff is, plenty of us KNOW that we prefer to have ear plugs in anyway, as an extra safeguard.
As to your assertion that ear muffs get in the way of most competition guns, I don't agree. I've shot competitively in trap, metallic silhouette, smallbore, high power, long range BR, and tactical matches. I wore and continue to wear ear muffs at all times while shooting, and for that matter when working in the garage with power tools or shop vacuums. They're not ideal as to comfortable cheekweld in some cases, but they beat the hell out of the alternative -- hearing loss.
Hey,
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion!
I feel obligated to add my "2 cents" to this kind of thread as I have actual scientific data to add.
When Boyd speaks, I listen as I am a rank beginner at long range shooting, but when I offer my suggestions, I expect a little respect. O.K.?
And, I'm not "pushing my product." I have nothing to do with selling Etymotic products other than offering advice for a product I know is better. I'm retired! I have enough to do practicing and re-loading for my rifles!
With respect to using plugs with a muff. Not a bad idea, but the yellow foamie is over-kill as they yield the most attenuation possible if inserted correctly. The problem is, not only can you not hear anything then, what you hear is muffled due to very poor frequency response with a simple plug for hearing protection. What I recommend to many of my friends that insist on muffs is also an etymotic product. The ER-20 HI-FI hearing protection. These are plugs with precisely 20 dB attenuation and very good frequency response. Response good enough to be used by many high school bands as it reduces hearing damage and still allows proper fidelity. These also work well for shooters with muffs as they decrease gain about as much as the electronic muffs add, so your ability to hear soft sounds like your neighbor talking or the RCO broadcasting orders is not impaired while still affording protection.
I don't know where a good place to buy these is, but the list price from Etymotic I think is $12 and I believe even ebay has sellers that sell them for less.
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion!
I feel obligated to add my "2 cents" to this kind of thread as I have actual scientific data to add.
When Boyd speaks, I listen as I am a rank beginner at long range shooting, but when I offer my suggestions, I expect a little respect. O.K.?
And, I'm not "pushing my product." I have nothing to do with selling Etymotic products other than offering advice for a product I know is better. I'm retired! I have enough to do practicing and re-loading for my rifles!
With respect to using plugs with a muff. Not a bad idea, but the yellow foamie is over-kill as they yield the most attenuation possible if inserted correctly. The problem is, not only can you not hear anything then, what you hear is muffled due to very poor frequency response with a simple plug for hearing protection. What I recommend to many of my friends that insist on muffs is also an etymotic product. The ER-20 HI-FI hearing protection. These are plugs with precisely 20 dB attenuation and very good frequency response. Response good enough to be used by many high school bands as it reduces hearing damage and still allows proper fidelity. These also work well for shooters with muffs as they decrease gain about as much as the electronic muffs add, so your ability to hear soft sounds like your neighbor talking or the RCO broadcasting orders is not impaired while still affording protection.
I don't know where a good place to buy these is, but the list price from Etymotic I think is $12 and I believe even ebay has sellers that sell them for less.
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