Hearing Protection Act, Would you fit your F-Class?

[people]

Here's my take on it.....Just my opinion...
They are already legal but not everyone has one. You will still have to use hearing protection because not everybody will show up to a match with them. Even the most expensive hearing protection is cheaper than a "can". The prices would have to fall to the floor to see matches shot with one on every gun. I belive they are somewhat a novelty at this point and when one adds the cost of a can and adds the the cost of diminished barrel life, I'm thinking one would profit from better load development and good old practice.

2 cents

Even if everyone had a can on their rifle you would still need to use hearing protection.

 

[Grimstod]

Really. You know of barrels running that long, that are competitive in modern F/TR terms? Cuz I sure don't.

This is with a rather fast shooting style of one shot per ever 16sec. Vt 135

 

[ED3]

This is with a rather fast shooting style of one shot per ever 16sec.
View attachment 1021360

How is "Accurate", or more precisely, "precision" defined;
...0.5 moa? ...minute of deer?...broad side of the barn?

 

[memilanuk]

'150 SP'... '38 gr' of powder... seriously?!? That's like a reduced/youth load for hunting deer.

We are discussing F/TR, as in F-Class, here. Do try to keep the examples at least half-way relevant.

 

[Erud]

Don't really see a ton of folks shooting 150 sp's for f-class either.

 

[alf]

Not sure about anyone else's experience, but I never had a 308 or 30x47 go beyond 2500 rounds for competitive accuracy in Hunter Benchrest.

 

[FatBoy]

Not sure about anyone else's experience, but I never had a 308 or 30x47 go beyond 2500 rounds for competitive accuracy in Hunter Benchrest.

This would be reduced by probably ~ 30% with a suppressor. I expect my 300wm to start dying about 900 rounds as opposed to maybe 1200. As long as a shooter understands the benefits and conciquences going in to any piece of gear, so be it.

 

[people]

This is with a rather fast shooting style of one shot per ever 16sec.

That is a very mild load for a 308. Depending on the powder it might be too low of a charge.

 

[Grimstod]

That is a very mild load for a 308. Depending on the powder it might be too low of a charge.

Its a very fast powder that is why its low. Some of the above did not seam to grasp this.

 

[Grimstod]

How is "Accurate", or more precisely, "precision" defined;
...0.5 moa? ...minute of deer?...broad side of the barn?

The accurate shooter.com barrel life calculator is suppose to be very tuff on accuracy. Slightest opening up of groups and it considers a barrel done. For deer hunting where 1moa is fine expect about twice this life.

 

[people]

Its a very fast powder that is why its low. Some of the above did not seam to grasp this.

OK I did not see the powder in that picture you posted.

 

[Grimstod]

OK I did not see the powder in that picture you posted.

Dang your right. I thought I put that in there. I updated it. Vt135

 

[memilanuk]

Its a very fast powder that is why its low. Some of the above did not seam to grasp this.

The point, which you seem to be failing to grasp, is that your contrived example has no relevance to modern competitive F/TR loads. Seeing as how we are in, ya know, a thread on *F-CLASS* and all.

Example. Typical 308 can last 6-7000 rds if shot slow but run it at a machine guns speed and you can turn a barrel bright red and ruin it in just 1000rds.

Really. You know of barrels running that long, that are competitive in modern F/TR terms? Cuz I sure don't.

Sure, you can pull a contrived example of a light charge of a fast powder behind a light bullet - as I said, basically a reduced/youth hunting load - and generate some magical number to 'prove' that a .308 can last 6-7k rds of accurate barrel life. That does not make it actually pertinent in any meaningful way.

Reality is that a 155 boat tail, such as a B155.5BT or S2156MK @ 2950-3050 fps is on the rather low end of the power band for competitive F/TR loads anymore. Having shot many, many, *MANY* thousands of rounds of said load, I'm reasonably comfortable in saying there's no way you're going to get there with that charge (38 gn) of that powder (N135) without some other issues cropping up, if at all. A typical load is more along the lines of 46-47 gn of Varget or N150. I've seen as much as 48gn used, with no pressure signs (long throat), or as little as 45 (short throat, tight bore). So running your calculator with say, 46.5 gn of N150... 3500 rds. Same charge of Varget (for whatever reason, they always worked out almost grain-for-grain compatible with those loads in my guns)... 2500. Both fairly reasonable, as somewhere around there is where I'd pull the barrels and put a fresh one on.

Moving forward to what is currently seen up and down the line... B185 Juggernauts and 200 Hybrids / 200.20Xs... again, common loads involve powders like N140, H4895, Varget, N150... in quantities from 42-46+ gn, depending a lot on the chamber used. I've ran various combinations through that spreadsheet, combinations that I've either personally used (as in, shot out multiple barrels with) or that I trust the person(s) loading them, and 2500 to just over 3500 rds 'accurate' barrel life is what keeps coming up - not some mythical 6-7k of some made-up load.

That's also not taking into account the real-world shooting rate - if I have good conditions and a healthy target puller (or an e-target), that single-shot target action goes into belt-fed mode

 

[Capt. Oblivious]

This would be reduced by probably ~ 30% with a suppressor. I expect my 300wm to start dying about 900 rounds as opposed to maybe 1200. As long as a shooter understands the benefits and conciquences going in to any piece of gear, so be it.

FB,why would you say this? Not trying to be smart but trying to understand?

 

[Grimstod]

The point, which you seem to be failing to grasp, is that your contrived example has no relevance to modern competitive F/TR loads. Seeing as how we are in, ya know, a thread on *F-CLASS* and all.



Sure, you can pull a contrived example of a light charge of a fast powder behind a light bullet - as I said, basically a reduced/youth hunting load - and generate some magical number to 'prove' that a .308 can last 6-7k rds of accurate barrel life. That does not make it actually pertinent in any meaningful way.

Reality is that a 155 boat tail, such as a B155.5BT or S2156MK @ 2950-3050 fps is on the rather low end of the power band for competitive F/TR loads anymore. Having shot many, many, *MANY* thousands of rounds of said load, I'm reasonably comfortable in saying there's no way you're going to get there with that charge (38 gn) of that powder (N135) without some other issues cropping up, if at all. A typical load is more along the lines of 46-47 gn of Varget or N150. I've seen as much as 48gn used, with no pressure signs (long throat), or as little as 45 (short throat, tight bore). So running your calculator with say, 46.5 gn of N150... 3500 rds. Same charge of Varget (for whatever reason, they always worked out almost grain-for-grain compatible with those loads in my guns)... 2500. Both fairly reasonable, as somewhere around there is where I'd pull the barrels and put a fresh one on.

Moving forward to what is currently seen up and down the line... B185 Juggernauts and 200 Hybrids / 200.20Xs... again, common loads involve powders like N140, H4895, Varget, N150... in quantities from 42-46+ gn, depending a lot on the chamber used. I've ran various combinations through that spreadsheet, combinations that I've either personally used (as in, shot out multiple barrels with) or that I trust the person(s) loading them, and 2500 to just over 3500 rds 'accurate' barrel life is what keeps coming up - not some mythical 6-7k of some made-up load.

That's also not taking into account the real-world shooting rate - if I have good conditions and a healthy target puller (or an e-target), that single-shot target action goes into belt-fed mode

You need to reread my post. You did not understand it. Here is an example of a 556 shooting 700rds. Notice how the speed of fire has an affect. F/TR has a higher rate of fire then the typical hunter sighting in at the range. Normal 556 or 223 last at least in the thousands of rounds as far as barrel life goes.

I think i would have called the barrel toasted at about 300rds if your accuracy standards were for F/TR. but if your shooting slower, the life of the barrel is significantly extended because it is allowed to cool between shots. How much easier can I make this for you?

 

[memilanuk]

How much easier can I make this for you?

By not claiming 6-7k barrel life in F/TR with a made-up .308 Win load?

 

[FatBoy]

FB,why would you say this? Not trying to be smart but trying to understand?

I'll start by saying 30% is my round number looking at my barrels.

A can has a lot of back pressure that puts as huge amount of powder fouling back into the barrel that otherwise would have existed. They also keep the barrel hotter, especially the last few inches and there are massive deposits of carbon and heat on the crown.

For someone shooting 10 shots a year and cleaning, this is probably not the case. For someone shooting competition where the barrel will see 100-150 rounds between cleanings and long strings of fire, they reduce barrel life.

Frank Green has a few comments about this on snipers Hide last year. I believe Terry Cross did as well. My gunsmith confirmed it too.

For me, the juice is worth the squeeze in the 300wm. I can shoot 230s all day and I am a notorious recoil pu@@y. My ears don't take the beating they would with a brake either. A simple set of foam plugs we can comfortably talk while shooting without stuff getting blown off the benches, etc.

https://bartleinbarrels.com/barrel-faq/

 

[Papa Charlie]

I call BS on the 700 rounds through that silencer, it disappeared probably around 400-500 rounds, so they don't count.

 

[people]

By not claiming 6-7k barrel life in F/TR with a made-up .308 Win load?

It is amazing how different competitions affect tube life. Some games it is very short even for a 308 and others it will last to 10k. Then some tubes are just better or worse for no reason. A buddy of mine has a 308 with 11 or 12K down range. It will still hold a E target just past 1050yds. What is amazing is how well it still shoots with the severe damage to several inches of rifling. I think at this point he is going to shoot it until it gives up. Granted paper shooting at distance is out of the question.

 

[memilanuk]

True. I had a Krieger that the throat just kept moving, and moving and moving... and not a little bit, either. Seemed like 40-50 thou longer every time I got around to measuring it. Finally just said screw it, set the seating depth and shot it. It took a butt-load of Varget (46.5gn) behind a 185 Juggernaut to keep it at rated speed, but it shot pretty well right up to the point where I noticed that Xs were getting a lot harder to come by. Checked the throat again... and I couldn't reach the lands without the bullet falling out of the neck. Figured I'd had 3500rds of good match accuracy out of it, and got another one. It'd probably keep someone shooting steel happy for a while still. But for F-class... no.