Headspace and boltface truing
- Thread starter vmaxpro
- Start date
This paticular topic would probably be better suited for the Gun Projects and Basic Gunsmithing section of this forum. You will get more response in that area.
Now I'm no gunsmith but, .004" taken off of the bolt face doesn't sound like alot to me. I own a Smith & Wesson 1500 and its bolt is very similar to that of a Remmy 700. With that being said I would think you could take .004" off of the front of the bolt itself and make that distance up. I could be wrong? As far as the barrel coming off is concerned, try heating the reciever up with a heat gun or blow drier and melt some canning wax where the barrel screws into the reciever. As it cools the reciever will draw the wax into the threads and make barrel removal a little easier. Got that trick from a gunsmith friend of mine
! And yes, you will need some headspace gauges when you screw on the new barrel! Good luck!
Mike
Now I'm no gunsmith but, .004" taken off of the bolt face doesn't sound like alot to me. I own a Smith & Wesson 1500 and its bolt is very similar to that of a Remmy 700. With that being said I would think you could take .004" off of the front of the bolt itself and make that distance up. I could be wrong? As far as the barrel coming off is concerned, try heating the reciever up with a heat gun or blow drier and melt some canning wax where the barrel screws into the reciever. As it cools the reciever will draw the wax into the threads and make barrel removal a little easier. Got that trick from a gunsmith friend of mine
! And yes, you will need some headspace gauges when you screw on the new barrel! Good luck!Mike
I am not sure if I understand all that is being said here. I do believe that the distance from the front of the bolt to the back of the barrel is called "gap space" and in setting up a rifle it is very important. I agree that you can adjust for the headspace change with the die, but if the gap space becomes too large it leaves too much of the head of the case exposed and high pressure loads become a real problem in a hurry. I had a 6ppc with way excessive gap space and when I upped my powder charge to where it shot bugholes I ended up with a belted 6ppc! That is not how belted cases are made I don't think! Anyway, somebody who builds rifles can set you up on how to measure your gap space and see if it is excessive.
Tom
Tom
butchlambert
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If you faced off only where the cartridge fits the space between the barrel and the bolt doesn't change. I would fireform new brass and adjust my dies accordingly.
Butch
Butch
Thanks for chiming in Butch! When I first read this, I was of the impression that there was going to be a rebarrel job here also. To keep the "original" headspacing specs, I was thinking they would have to shave off .004" from the front of the bolt. Now that I feel like an idiot because this fellow wants to keep using his original barrel. You are right Butch, fireform new brass and adjust dies accordingly. Sorry for my misunderstanding earlier!
Mike
Mike
Haha sorry for the confusion. I fired some stout loads today and its ok. I just get very cautious! The " gap" from the very very front of the bolt is .006. I trued up the " seat" where the case touches. The bad thing is tho my reduced loads pushes the primer out a little now so I might have to fireform some brass to use them. They dont have enough ass to stretch the case. Thanks for all the help guys!
Larryh128
Silver $$ Contributor
According to your last post, you are rocking on the edge of excessive headspace. + .004 can be a very big deal. The proper way to do this is to remove the barrel & adjust the shoulder. While you can fireform to the chamber, stretching a case that far can easily lead to a separation in the case wall.
A lot of times this won't show up for a few firings & when it does, you don't want to be holding onto the rifle. You can use a "pick" to run up the inside of the case & if you get any type of "catch" , you have a problem. Not having enough ass in the round isn't your issue, all centerfire cartridges have more than enough to form to the chamber. Your problem is that the case is rattling around the chamber. Not a good situation. Most guages are .006 from go to no go & some are shorter. If it's beyond your scope of expertise, get some help from someone that fully understands your problem.
A lot of times this won't show up for a few firings & when it does, you don't want to be holding onto the rifle. You can use a "pick" to run up the inside of the case & if you get any type of "catch" , you have a problem. Not having enough ass in the round isn't your issue, all centerfire cartridges have more than enough to form to the chamber. Your problem is that the case is rattling around the chamber. Not a good situation. Most guages are .006 from go to no go & some are shorter. If it's beyond your scope of expertise, get some help from someone that fully understands your problem.
I'm not a gunsmith, but I don't understand how fireforming a case to a chamber that has 0.04" more headspace is any worse than something like chambering 6mm BR brass in Dasher or BRX chamber and fireforming it? It would seem that as long as so adjusted your dies properly and didn't repeatedly resize them down to SAAMI specs, it would be no less safe than making a wildcat.
Larryh128 said:
Gotcha. Im gonna check that out. Sorry sometimes I get ahead of myself and dont fully explain things haha thats my fault. My original post was on my phone and I hate using that thing so it was kinda brief. My intentions were to square the bolt face and lugs, then true the action square by .002 and the barrel. BUT, apparently howas are almost imposible to remove the barrel without trashing it. An action wrench with a barrel vise just wont do it. Then I considered doing a barrel nut, which I may still do. As far as the brass not sealing well that was with 4gr trail boss behind a 50gr. My 8.5 trail boss loads with 35gr vmax'es seal perfect. In fact they look like they did before they were fired. My apologies again, its a bad habit.
Larryh128
Silver $$ Contributor
The problem is that .004 has been added to the existing headspace that could be ?. Case separation is not a big deal, it's a huge deal. That's why Mausers have a 3rd lug & Rem Etc have a gas port to vent out the side of the action which keeps bolts from going thru the side of your face. When forming cases, the bullet is jammed into the lands OR the case shoulder is making contact which will form a case properly. His case wasn't making contact on the shoulder or having the bullet jammed into the lands so it's basically rattling around in the chamber & ends up exerting treamendous thrust on the bolt face & rebounds forward. That's why primers pop. Anytime that you're forming a belt on a case, thank the case manufacturer for good metalurgy because that's the only thing saving you. Blown cases aren't heard of a lot today but 100 years ago were common causes of severe injury & death. Thank God we have good brass. P.S. That Howa barrel will come off, a friend has done a bunch & I'll check on his technique.
Re-read Butch's post. .004 is not that much. Fireform the bras as if you were fireforming a wildcat. Seat the bullet long into the lands so you feelit closing the bolt, and fire.
THEN, you have to adjust the dies to only bump the shoulder enough to resize and close the bolt, not mash it down against the shell holder. Remember, this is your gun, not to be sold to someone else.
There is this long discussion about an ackley chamber that you MUST set back the barrel to do an ackley. Well, if it's your gun and you plan on shooting out the barrel, the same procedure can be used, fireform the brass and have at it. The only reason to set back an ackley is to pin the brass in the chamber when firing new brass.
If you are a avid shooter and reloader, and understand what's going on,people have formed and fireformed brass much more drastically than a mere .004".
THEN, you have to adjust the dies to only bump the shoulder enough to resize and close the bolt, not mash it down against the shell holder. Remember, this is your gun, not to be sold to someone else.
There is this long discussion about an ackley chamber that you MUST set back the barrel to do an ackley. Well, if it's your gun and you plan on shooting out the barrel, the same procedure can be used, fireform the brass and have at it. The only reason to set back an ackley is to pin the brass in the chamber when firing new brass.
If you are a avid shooter and reloader, and understand what's going on,people have formed and fireformed brass much more drastically than a mere .004".
Larryh128
Silver $$ Contributor
It's not that .004 is too much, it's that .004 has been added onto an unknown amount that existed. He doesn't know what his headspace is, but I guarantee you that it's not.004 because it wouldn't be popping primers. I once cut an Ackley chamber using a Ackley go gauge & cut to a 0 drop. Brass rattled around & took 2 loads to form fully. The 3rd loading was showing separation at the top of the web on all 6 cases.
That was the very last time that I used a go gauge on an Ackley, I re-cut to a snug shoulder with the stadard round which ended up being .003 shorter that the go gauge. Perfect brass with no issues. This is not saying that you shouldn't use gauges because I do, only to show what can arise.
That was the very last time that I used a go gauge on an Ackley, I re-cut to a snug shoulder with the stadard round which ended up being .003 shorter that the go gauge. Perfect brass with no issues. This is not saying that you shouldn't use gauges because I do, only to show what can arise.
Well, picture this...if a reamer was only run in about half way but the difference was made up by setting the bolt way back, a gage would still work. But there would be way too much of the case exposed. So, is there a standard on how much the case should be exposed? Right now my bolt face is .1290 deep and .006 from the barrel face. So .135 of the case is exposed.
Larryh128
Silver $$ Contributor
You certainly don't want more than that. Most rifles that I deal with typically will have .110-.120 of the guage showing out of the chamber. Not a makes are the same though. Personally, I would make the distance from the barrel face more like .002. I spoke with my friend about your problem & he said that the Howa were definitely on tight. Here is the routine.
1st I put my barrel vise in a 20 ton hydralic press with double stick tape on the shank. This helps protect the blueing & gives a little positive bite.
2nd, heat the action ring with a blow gun (heat gun). They can be had for about $30 from Del City if you can't find one.
You need to heat it up very well & a couple different times won't hurt anything. You can also shoot some Kroil in on the threads while you're doing that.
3rd, have your action wrench tightened down (I also use double stick on this) in a 9 O'clock position with the handle pointing straight out.
4th, This a an important step. Hit the action wrench handle with a sledge hammer 8# or more. I mean absolutely clock the thing. The sudden shock pops them loose.
The heat will take care of any sealer that might be present.Hope this helps.
1st I put my barrel vise in a 20 ton hydralic press with double stick tape on the shank. This helps protect the blueing & gives a little positive bite.
2nd, heat the action ring with a blow gun (heat gun). They can be had for about $30 from Del City if you can't find one.
You need to heat it up very well & a couple different times won't hurt anything. You can also shoot some Kroil in on the threads while you're doing that.
3rd, have your action wrench tightened down (I also use double stick on this) in a 9 O'clock position with the handle pointing straight out.
4th, This a an important step. Hit the action wrench handle with a sledge hammer 8# or more. I mean absolutely clock the thing. The sudden shock pops them loose.
The heat will take care of any sealer that might be present.Hope this helps.
Pete Lincoln / Roedale in Germany does much accurizing on the Howa 1500.(the same as a Vanguard)
.... this is lifted from a thread else where
He says the Vanguard barrels and 1500 barrels are extremely difficult to remove. .. the blued models are the most difficult.
He says he has practically given up turning them loose.
He uses a 1 mm parting bit in a lathe and removes a miniscule amount of the shoulder to relieve the pressure, the barrel then spins easily apart.
Maybe another way?
.... this is lifted from a thread else where
He says the Vanguard barrels and 1500 barrels are extremely difficult to remove. .. the blued models are the most difficult.
He says he has practically given up turning them loose.
He uses a 1 mm parting bit in a lathe and removes a miniscule amount of the shoulder to relieve the pressure, the barrel then spins easily apart.
Maybe another way?
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