That sounds good but i doubt if that happens. If they did coat the inside of the neck they would using it as a big sales pitch. The only people that have this happen have to be doing some super cleaning to cause this. I use brake cleaner on the necks when fire forming Dasher brass and still don't see it. The other thing i think there would be a warning label on brass about this........jim
Have you had any experience with "cold welding" of bullets in case necks?
- Thread starter BoydAllen
- Start date
Devil's advocate so as not to diminish the positive attributes of stainless media for cleaning brass and promoting urban myths:
We don't understand cold welding exactly or what causes it or even if it exists.
What we feel as seating force and consequent differences in the effort needed to break the bullet free again is not yet known or quantified.
I have seen no difference on paper from shooting ammo recently loaded compared to to 'cold welded" after sitting for a couple months after using stainless media.
We don't understand cold welding exactly or what causes it or even if it exists.
What we feel as seating force and consequent differences in the effort needed to break the bullet free again is not yet known or quantified.
I have seen no difference on paper from shooting ammo recently loaded compared to to 'cold welded" after sitting for a couple months after using stainless media.
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
johara1 said:
Jim,
I don't want to and won't hijack boyds thread but I would like to p.m you about this, I am interested as I have several chamberings in 6brx, very similar to your dasher.
Boyd so as to keep it on course I have never had the "pop" with any of my 6brx chambering's ;D
Wayne.
in2deep said:
I would agreed that what you say is true. Cold welding is a known fact, but what we have seen and heard associated with reloading are only signs that cold welding may exist in reloading i.e. problems associated with very clean necks, very hard seating, poping, and sometimes problems with accuracy. Does this qualify as iron clad evidence that cold welding existed in these cases and was the cause of what was observed? Absolutely not, since no control studies have been done to prove or disprove the cause. I guess this is what we are looking for.
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
jlow,jlow said:
I am curious,... are you basically saying Boyd and I and others that have heard the pop that it is all in our heads and it DOESN'T exist at all or are you arguing the terminology of cold welding it'self I am a little confused here ??? it seems like every time someone has testimony to the pop your saying it doesn't exist or am I reading this all wrong? Because I dam sure am not a liar and it's not in my head as I have heard it more then once and I can duplicate if I want and it doesn't take months or years! let me know exactly what your thinking because so far I just don't understand what your saying.
Wayne.
Wayne,
You are missing the point. I am not dismissing what you have heard or seen. However, just because you heard a pop, or found rounds hard to seat, or found rounds that all a sudden become inaccurate are not scientific proof that cold welding is at work. That is because what you have are only observations which points to the possible existence of cold welding but there are other possibilities which may cause what you have seen or heard to exists.
In the scientific world (as to the causal world), all the “evidence†thus far only points to the possibility and therefore gives someone a reason to look to see if it exists. There is a huge difference to these observations and a truly properly controlled experiment with reasonable n-size (read more than one or two observations), repeatability, and supporting evidence such as chemical analysis of what is holding the two pieces together.
You are missing the point. I am not dismissing what you have heard or seen. However, just because you heard a pop, or found rounds hard to seat, or found rounds that all a sudden become inaccurate are not scientific proof that cold welding is at work. That is because what you have are only observations which points to the possible existence of cold welding but there are other possibilities which may cause what you have seen or heard to exists.
In the scientific world (as to the causal world), all the “evidence†thus far only points to the possibility and therefore gives someone a reason to look to see if it exists. There is a huge difference to these observations and a truly properly controlled experiment with reasonable n-size (read more than one or two observations), repeatability, and supporting evidence such as chemical analysis of what is holding the two pieces together.
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
Jlow,jlow said:
So are we going to spend $2000000 and thousands of man hours on this or are we going to analyze it to death or just agree that it does exist, what we THINK may cause it and stop doing whatever causes it,..I for one knows what causes it,...to clean of necks, squeaky clean necks is what does it for me, you all do what you like, I have better things to do then beat a dead horse, it's been fun,..Seeya
Wayne.
Wayne.
It’s really up to the folks here as to what to do if any. I am only telling you what I know. It’s going to cost some money since you have to put together rounds. But the cost can be kept down if it can be done with someone that already have the tools like the K&M seater than can measure seating pressure and can dove tail some work at a lab that they already work at.
Nothing is cheap now-a-days except for talk – LOL! I personally don’t have any cold welding problems and so this is more or less academic to me and so just answering questions.
Nothing is cheap now-a-days except for talk – LOL! I personally don’t have any cold welding problems and so this is more or less academic to me and so just answering questions.
Many years ago I had left over 222Rem reloads in an ammo can for over a year. These rounds when first loaded produced the nicest 5 and 10 shot little bug hole groups you ever saw from my Sako L46 varmint rifle. A year later when I shot those same rounds,
I could not keep them under 1 inch. So I took them back home and reset my seating die to seat the bullets in just a little deeper. To my suprise the majority of those rounds gave a snapping sound when reseated while some I could feel a little drag during the reseating. Went back to the range and shot those reseated rounds. And the nice little bug hole groups returned. So now I seat all my rounds a tad longer, then reseat before shooting them. Its been my experience that over time bullets will seize in the case necks giving you uneven bullet pull upon firing. When I shot NRA high- power, the Marine shooters would be reseating their ammo before going to the line.
I could not keep them under 1 inch. So I took them back home and reset my seating die to seat the bullets in just a little deeper. To my suprise the majority of those rounds gave a snapping sound when reseated while some I could feel a little drag during the reseating. Went back to the range and shot those reseated rounds. And the nice little bug hole groups returned. So now I seat all my rounds a tad longer, then reseat before shooting them. Its been my experience that over time bullets will seize in the case necks giving you uneven bullet pull upon firing. When I shot NRA high- power, the Marine shooters would be reseating their ammo before going to the line.
I get the same sound when i change shims in my seating by .001 and it was only long enough to measure the length and change a shim. i'm only using .001 neck tension,you have to over come seating pressure so it makes a sound no big deal.
Wayne send me a PM and we will go over it...............jim
Wayne send me a PM and we will go over it...............jim
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
With all due respect, I believe that you you are wrong. Many shooters have evidently not experience what the topic of this thread is about. That is not a deficiency on their part, just luck of the draw. I have changed seating depths in very small increments using a couple of different brands of arbor press dies. The difference in the amount of force that it takes to break loose a bullet that has bonded to the neck is perhaps ten or more times the the effort it takes to reseat a bullet that has not become bonded. Wayne told me that when he experienced the problem, that the amount of effort was so high that he was concerned that he might strip the pinion gear if his Sinclair arbor press. It would be difficult for someone who has not experienced this to understand what is being discussed.
I hear ya Boyd
As a preloader its actually become part of my superstition. I've tuned my rifle/ammo the best I can the right before race day.
Load em that night and hope for the best. Shoot em like you tuned em. I've witnessed the pop on several occassions and acted accordingly.
I have no problem accepting some folks have found good accuracy with shelved loads. No problem at all.
Just like some folks swear by factory crimp dies giving them better accuracy. Some loads may appreciate that extra push factor.
As a green reloader I witnessed it myself. Made extensive forays into the art of crimping because it indeed worked so well at first. Different tangent but I'd never crimp a load these days no matter what preliminary results I obtained.
The simple act of mutilating my brass was enough to dissuade me from such endeavours. How do you mutilate brass consistently firing after firing after firing? Now theres a conundrum. ;D
As a preloader its actually become part of my superstition. I've tuned my rifle/ammo the best I can the right before race day.
Load em that night and hope for the best. Shoot em like you tuned em. I've witnessed the pop on several occassions and acted accordingly.
I have no problem accepting some folks have found good accuracy with shelved loads. No problem at all.
Just like some folks swear by factory crimp dies giving them better accuracy. Some loads may appreciate that extra push factor.
As a green reloader I witnessed it myself. Made extensive forays into the art of crimping because it indeed worked so well at first. Different tangent but I'd never crimp a load these days no matter what preliminary results I obtained.
The simple act of mutilating my brass was enough to dissuade me from such endeavours. How do you mutilate brass consistently firing after firing after firing? Now theres a conundrum. ;D
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
Ever play with a factory crimp die, for a factory chamber and unturned brass? The reason that I ask is that I have one that I have never tried. A long time ago, a fellow told me that he saw some improvement on a factory rifle, that forced him to jump the lightest bullets. He said that he set the die to just barely turn the mouth of the case, without deforming the bullet. Somehow I don't think that I will be buying one for my PPC, but some day, just for grins, I might try a collet die, just to stir them up.
22XC Guy said:
This is the bugaboo of what we are looking at. The problem is differentiating between cold welding and corrosion which may bind the two pieces together. Without knowing how much force each entails and the existence/absence of the two, it would be hard to nail down the culprit to one or the other.
This is why experimentation is necessary.....
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
If reloaders are made aware of the problem, the conditions that can cause it, and ways to deal with and/or prevent it, knowing the exact mechanism may not be all that important. Gasp!....did I just say that ? ;-) This thread has brought a lot of good information to light. I suspect that anyone that reads it will think twice before polishing the inside of his necks, especially when loading unwaxed moly coated bullets. We have learned of a potential issue with polished necks and moly. Are there any users of tungsten disulphide, or hexagonal boron nitride that have similar experiences to report?
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