jackieschmidt
Gold $$ Contributor
NOPE ! Not this guy . I was getting closer and closer to winning when they pulled the 4895 , and was forced to find another powder . I did . Don't see any "shortage" issues on the horizon for VV-150 , and I'll just stick with it . Hodgen can take a leap thru a flyin donut !A serious note.
I have been in buisness for 50 years. Even though we are a manufacturing facility with a strong customer base, we never loose sight of the fact that our customers have other options if we cannot meet their needs. In short, we do not tell our loyal customer base no.
Hodgdon made a decision several years ago to forsake their loyal customer base in the Reloading Community and go for a more, (at the time), lucrative market in the marketing of munitions for a very profitable War in Ukraine.
That’s fine. We all want to make a dollar. But the political climate has changed, and the new Administration has pledged to do everything possible to end that War. That means the Powder that has been sold during the War will now have to be marketed in the Civilian Market.
But what if those abandoned customers have discovered other (available) options that give the same level of performance. Should Hodgdon just assume that every body is waiting with bated breath for the return of two popular powders that were so abruptly taken from the market?
It would be nice if everybody told Hodgdon to take a hike. But we won’t. We will be beating the doors down and burning up the keyboard to get our orders in. And we will pay. Probably $80 a pound.
I include myself in this. When it comes to shooting just a little smaller, or gaining just one more X, I’m as big of a whore as anybody.
Since Hodgdon manufactures zero gunpowder, why would a government agency deal with them versus the source of production?A serious note.
I have been in buisness for 50 years. Even though we are a manufacturing facility with a strong customer base, we never loose sight of the fact that our customers have other options if we cannot meet their needs. In short, we do not tell our loyal customer base no.
Hodgdon made a decision several years ago to forsake their loyal customer base in the Reloading Community and go for a more, (at the time), lucrative market in the marketing of munitions for a very profitable War in Ukraine.
That’s fine. We all want to make a dollar. But the political climate has changed, and the new Administration has pledged to do everything possible to end that War. That means the Powder that has been sold during the War will now have to be marketed in the Civilian Market.
But what if those abandoned customers have discovered other (available) options that give the same level of performance. Should Hodgdon just assume that every body is waiting with bated breath for the return of two popular powders that were so abruptly taken from the market?
It would be nice if everybody told Hodgdon to take a hike. But we won’t. We will be beating the doors down and burning up the keyboard to get our orders in. And we will pay. Probably $80 a pound.
I include myself in this. When it comes to shooting just a little smaller, or gaining just one more X, I’m as big of a whore as anybody.
Kinda shades of Coke changing its formula years ago, then getting a tsunami of opposition, then changing it back....tons of users never believed they did change back.Is current H4198 the same as what was being supplied 3-5 years ago? Has anyone tried it?
Especially Berger. Nothing stays the same. LL Bean is another example imo in the retail business. It was founded by a duck and big game hunter to sell goods to the sportsmen and women. Now, although they still have a modicum of sporting clothing and long guns, they are mostly a deck shoe and trendy clothing emporium.Hodgon screwed us, Sierra screwed us, Berger screwed us.....we put em business and kept em in business......I'm not very forgiving.
LL Bean clothing prices are shocking!Especially Berger. Nothing stays the same. LL Bean is another example imo in the retail business. It was founded by a duck and big game hunter to sell goods to the sportsmen and women. Now, although they still have a modicum of sporting clothing and long guns, they are mostly a deck shoe and trendy clothing emporium.
Cabelas came to Maine years ago. LL Bean had completely removed all firearms sales. Right after Cabelas announcement guess what, Beans added on and put long guns(no black rifles) back into inventory. Talk about forgetting from whence you come!
Since Hodgdon manufactures zero gunpowder, why would a government agency deal with them versus the source of production?
Hodgdon made a decision several years ago to forsake their loyal customer base in the Reloading Community and go for a more, (at the time), lucrative market in the marketing of munitions for a very profitable War in Ukraine.
Laurie - Great write up. Giant kudos for taking the time to compose and write it.Hodgdon controls the entire US distribution of some grades, primarily the Australian ADI manufactured 'Extreme' powders, so commercial US sporting/target ammunition companies obtain it through this source. Military ammo is another matter, so If Lake City say wants very large quantities of ADI tubular grades, it would negotiate with and order directly from ADI as you suggest .......... but it doesn't want or use such large quantities of this type, in fact probably none at all (see below).
I just can't accept this assertion. Military smallarms ammunition is overwhelmingly loaded with ball-type powders, and many procurement agencies including the US forces insist on this type except for a few special-purpose loadings. We're talking H4198 and H4895 and other ADI made Extreme extruded products whose military use is nil or near nil, and which, as with all Extreme Extruded grades command very much higher prices in a premium civilian niche market segment. Military sales were more lucrative! Really?
The long and the short of it is that there is excess demand in the USA alone for these ADI powders in relation to the company's manufacturing capabilities and the few South-Pacific shipping services that operate. We in Europe lost all of these powders around four years ago thanks to EU REACH regs, but long before that many Hodgdon Extreme grades were so rare here as to be unobtainable since in practice nearly everything was even then going to the US civilian handloading market, and damn all elsewhere (including ADI's own domestic market in Australia as any Aussie handloader will tell you, and they pay premium prices too but not to Hodgdon of course as they buy from ADI's own domestic operation). IIRC Edgar Brothers, the UK/European Hodgdon distributor had 15,000lb VarGet alone on back-order some years before both REACH and Ukraine, and there has been massive growth in US civilian shooting activity in subsequent years and consequent demand for all types of ammunition and components.
There is an overall western world shortage of smallarms propellants and in particular the wet nitrocellulose base material that is sold around the world. (Only a few explosives factories make this essential element themselves and many energetics manufacturers buy it in. Consider for a second how much base nitrocellulose is required by a single 155mm artillery shell, so every shell fired on the Ukrainian side abstracts it from the West's fixed supply that would otherwise be used in whatever type of propellant - and this has nothing at all to do with Hodgdon except its costs for finished powders will rise like everybody else's as is normal when demand outstrips supply.) The answer is to open new manufacturing facilities, the entire opposite of what has happened in the West over the last 40 years. To do this will require great political will in the face of extreme public hostility to any new dangerous materials and potentially polluting manufacturing plant, and of course would require governments to stamp really hard on their own safety agencies. There isn't a single pound of extruded smallarms powder made in the USA, nor has there been since since Dupont closed and manufacturing of its products was moved to Canada, and I'm told by reliable US sources that your own EPA has a great deal to do with that thanks to its safety regulations. The US only makes ball-types and the LCAAP or whichever US government agency procures ammunition components on its behalf deals directly with General Dynamics St. Marks Powder Co. and others, not with Hodgdon. That is despite Hodgdon marketing and distributing all of the handloading marques and products made by St. Marks.
To add a little bit to the AdI issue, before COVID they (ADI) had issue as a result of a fire and were in the middle of developing new pistol/shotgun powders. They actually do post some news and plans on their website. Here is the latest from August.Hodgdon controls the entire US distribution of some grades, primarily the Australian ADI manufactured 'Extreme' powders, so commercial US sporting/target ammunition companies obtain it through this source. Military ammo is another matter, so If Lake City say wants very large quantities of ADI tubular grades, it would negotiate with and order directly from ADI as you suggest .......... but it doesn't want or use such large quantities of this type, in fact probably none at all (see below).
I just can't accept this assertion. Military smallarms ammunition is overwhelmingly loaded with ball-type powders, and many procurement agencies including the US forces insist on this type except for a few special-purpose loadings. We're talking H4198 and H4895 and other ADI made Extreme extruded products whose military use is nil or near nil, and which, as with all Extreme Extruded grades command very much higher prices in a premium civilian niche market segment. Military sales were more lucrative! Really?
The long and the short of it is that there is excess demand in the USA alone for these ADI powders in relation to the company's manufacturing capabilities and the few South-Pacific shipping services that operate. We in Europe lost all of these powders around four years ago thanks to EU REACH regs, but long before that many Hodgdon Extreme grades were so rare here as to be unobtainable since in practice nearly everything was even then going to the US civilian handloading market, and damn all elsewhere (including ADI's own domestic market in Australia as any Aussie handloader will tell you, and they pay premium prices too but not to Hodgdon of course as they buy from ADI's own domestic operation). IIRC Edgar Brothers, the UK/European Hodgdon distributor had 15,000lb VarGet alone on back-order some years before both REACH and Ukraine, and there has been massive growth in US civilian shooting activity in subsequent years and consequent demand for all types of ammunition and components.
There is an overall western world shortage of smallarms propellants and in particular the wet nitrocellulose base material that is sold around the world. (Only a few explosives factories make this essential element themselves and many energetics manufacturers buy it in. Consider for a second how much base nitrocellulose is required by a single 155mm artillery shell, so every shell fired on the Ukrainian side abstracts it from the West's fixed supply that would otherwise be used in whatever type of propellant - and this has nothing at all to do with Hodgdon except its costs for finished powders will rise like everybody else's as is normal when demand outstrips supply.) The answer is to open new manufacturing facilities, the entire opposite of what has happened in the West over the last 40 years. To do this will require great political will in the face of extreme public hostility to any new dangerous materials and potentially polluting manufacturing plant, and of course would require governments to stamp really hard on their own safety agencies. There isn't a single pound of extruded smallarms powder made in the USA, nor has there been since since Dupont closed and manufacturing of its products was moved to Canada, and I'm told by reliable US sources that your own EPA has a great deal to do with that thanks to its safety regulations. The US only makes ball-types and the LCAAP or whichever US government agency procures ammunition components on its behalf deals directly with General Dynamics St. Marks Powder Co. and others, not with Hodgdon. That is despite Hodgdon marketing and distributing all of the handloading marques and products made by St. Marks.
thanks Laurie for that post-- much good info. wat about VV powders-- Made by the Fins it seems they are keeping up with demand or close in the US anyway? have to wonder how much capacity they actually have?Hodgdon controls the entire US distribution of some grades, primarily the Australian ADI manufactured 'Extreme' powders, so commercial US sporting/target ammunition companies obtain it through this source. Military ammo is another matter, so If Lake City say wants very large quantities of ADI tubular grades, it would negotiate with and order directly from ADI as you suggest .......... but it doesn't want or use such large quantities of this type, in fact probably none at all (see below).
I just can't accept this assertion. Military smallarms ammunition is overwhelmingly loaded with ball-type powders, and many procurement agencies including the US forces insist on this type except for a few special-purpose loadings. We're talking H4198 and H4895 and other ADI made Extreme extruded products whose military use is nil or near nil, and which, as with all Extreme Extruded grades command very much higher prices in a premium civilian niche market segment. Military sales were more lucrative! Really?
The long and the short of it is that there is excess demand in the USA alone for these ADI powders in relation to the company's manufacturing capabilities and the few South-Pacific shipping services that operate. We in Europe lost all of these powders around four years ago thanks to EU REACH regs, but long before that many Hodgdon Extreme grades were so rare here as to be unobtainable since in practice nearly everything was even then going to the US civilian handloading market, and damn all elsewhere (including ADI's own domestic market in Australia as any Aussie handloader will tell you, and they pay premium prices too but not to Hodgdon of course as they buy from ADI's own domestic operation). IIRC Edgar Brothers, the UK/European Hodgdon distributor had 15,000lb VarGet alone on back-order some years before both REACH and Ukraine, and there has been massive growth in US civilian shooting activity in subsequent years and consequent demand for all types of ammunition and components.
There is an overall western world shortage of smallarms propellants and in particular the wet nitrocellulose base material that is sold around the world. (Only a few explosives factories make this essential element themselves and many energetics manufacturers buy it in. Consider for a second how much base nitrocellulose is required by a single 155mm artillery shell, so every shell fired on the Ukrainian side abstracts it from the West's fixed supply that would otherwise be used in whatever type of propellant - and this has nothing at all to do with Hodgdon except its costs for finished powders will rise like everybody else's as is normal when demand outstrips supply.) The answer is to open new manufacturing facilities, the entire opposite of what has happened in the West over the last 40 years. To do this will require great political will in the face of extreme public hostility to any new dangerous materials and potentially polluting manufacturing plant, and of course would require governments to stamp really hard on their own safety agencies. There isn't a single pound of extruded smallarms powder made in the USA, nor has there been since since Dupont closed and manufacturing of its products was moved to Canada, and I'm told by reliable US sources that your own EPA has a great deal to do with that thanks to its safety regulations. The US only makes ball-types and the LCAAP or whichever US government agency procures ammunition components on its behalf deals directly with General Dynamics St. Marks Powder Co. and others, not with Hodgdon. That is despite Hodgdon marketing and distributing all of the handloading marques and products made by St. Marks.
Sometime in 2020 or thereabouts, Hodgdon said H4198 wasn't going to be made for a few years so they could concentrate on the big sellers. Hard to tell what the truth is because ADI, the maker, isn't saying.Hodgdon controls the entire US distribution of some grades, primarily the Australian ADI manufactured 'Extreme' powders, so commercial US sporting/target ammunition companies obtain it through this source. Military ammo is another matter, so If Lake City say wants very large quantities of ADI tubular grades, it would negotiate with and order directly from ADI as you suggest .......... but it doesn't want or use such large quantities of this type, in fact probably none at all (see below).
I just can't accept this assertion. Military smallarms ammunition is overwhelmingly loaded with ball-type powders, and many procurement agencies including the US forces insist on this type except for a few special-purpose loadings. We're talking H4198 and H4895 and other ADI made Extreme extruded products whose military use is nil or near nil, and which, as with all Extreme Extruded grades command very much higher prices in a premium civilian niche market segment. Military sales were more lucrative! Really?
The long and the short of it is that there is excess demand in the USA alone for these ADI powders in relation to the company's manufacturing capabilities and the few South-Pacific shipping services that operate. We in Europe lost all of these powders around four years ago thanks to EU REACH regs, but long before that many Hodgdon Extreme grades were so rare here as to be unobtainable since in practice nearly everything was even then going to the US civilian handloading market, and damn all elsewhere (including ADI's own domestic market in Australia as any Aussie handloader will tell you, and they pay premium prices too but not to Hodgdon of course as they buy from ADI's own domestic operation). IIRC Edgar Brothers, the UK/European Hodgdon distributor had 15,000lb VarGet alone on back-order some years before both REACH and Ukraine, and there has been massive growth in US civilian shooting activity in subsequent years and consequent demand for all types of ammunition and components.
There is an overall western world shortage of smallarms propellants and in particular the wet nitrocellulose base material that is sold around the world. (Only a few explosives factories make this essential element themselves and many energetics manufacturers buy it in. Consider for a second how much base nitrocellulose is required by a single 155mm artillery shell, so every shell fired on the Ukrainian side abstracts it from the West's fixed supply that would otherwise be used in whatever type of propellant - and this has nothing at all to do with Hodgdon except its costs for finished powders will rise like everybody else's as is normal when demand outstrips supply.) The answer is to open new manufacturing facilities, the entire opposite of what has happened in the West over the last 40 years. To do this will require great political will in the face of extreme public hostility to any new dangerous materials and potentially polluting manufacturing plant, and of course would require governments to stamp really hard on their own safety agencies. There isn't a single pound of extruded smallarms powder made in the USA, nor has there been since since Dupont closed and manufacturing of its products was moved to Canada, and I'm told by reliable US sources that your own EPA has a great deal to do with that thanks to its safety regulations. The US only makes ball-types and the LCAAP or whichever US government agency procures ammunition components on its behalf deals directly with General Dynamics St. Marks Powder Co. and others, not with Hodgdon. That is despite Hodgdon marketing and distributing all of the handloading marques and products made by St. Marks.
thanks Laurie for that post-- much good info. wat about VV powders-- Made by the Fins it seems they are keeping up with demand or close in the US anyway? have to wonder how much capacity they actually have?
thats the thing- we dont know wat we will have to do down the road if we wanna stay in this game. if i cant get a component i dont waste my other valuable components on it. mite as well start new load workup rite then. i hope not to have to use hodgdon or alliant powders in the future but i can never say never.Jackie was right when he said ... "But what if those abandoned customers have discovered other (available) options that give the same level of performance. Should Hodgdon just assume that every body is waiting with bated breath for the return of two popular powders that were so abruptly taken from the market?"
I was using H322 almost exclusively until it became unobtanium. I contacted Hodgdon and spoke with someone there. I asked when it would be available. The answer was .. not sure, but we're working on it.
Long story short .. several more contacts .. same answer. So I tried a few other powders and found two that produce the same results. So, will I return to H322 if it ever becomes available again? Who knows .. maybe if it's priced similarly to the powders I'm using now. If not, I'll continue to use the powders I'm using now.
more great info laurie- thanks—- i wonder why VV is favoring the US over the EU- i didnt know that. Nammo must have decided for now that the US market is more valuable to them. I wonder why? i keep thinking VV has lowered prices here to take as much of the market as they can then they will raise them after we are hooked— normal business stuff!!I know they have at least doubled production, and have certainly increased handloading supplies enormously. Your gain is at least partly our loss as the UK distributor Hannams Reloading tell me that they invariably receive short deliveries on their orders and have a lot of stuff on back-order.
Vihtavuori was nearly a prime example of the madness that now afflicts the west on strategic suppliers. The primary EU energetics company, Eurenco bought Viht at the end of the last century when the US and Nato were heavily committed to the Balkans, then Iraq and Afghanistan and the demand for powders for military buyers and prices were high. Then, as soon as military activity fell off, decided it had 'excess capacity', and Viht was the one that had to go. It was on sale for a year, no offers and parts of the plant had been closed on the way to complete closure, when Nammo Oy stepped in at one to midnight midnight and played the white knight. Without that, where would we (and the US) be today?
Viht has been even more important than usual to us, as most of our other supplies have dried up since Russia's Ukraine invasion. As with the US, Alliant powders have become rare to invisible (and the UK distributor has set an RRP of £105-107 ($130) per lb for most of the extruded rifle grades. Nitrochemie which makes Reload Swiss powders (plus a few Alliants) and is half owned by Europe's largest ammunition manufacturer RUAG virtually stopped deliveries. We saw one shipment only of Norma powders after REACH came in and it ceased because the distributor didn't make the killing it hoped for. We've received Lovex but it's a small player in the market, and Hodgdon's recent St, Marks produced ball powders such as the CFEs and now the StaBALLs. we also got the new IMR Endurons, but as everybody knows they disappeared too after Ukraine kicked off, and whilst Chris Hodgdon says they'll be back, there is no timescale.
Have they lowered their prices or just kept them flat?VV has lowered prices here
To add a little bit to the AdI issue, before COVID they (ADI) had issue as a result of a fire and were in the middle of developing new pistol/shotgun powders. They actually do post some news and plans on their website. Here is the latest from August.
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