Group question - flyers and seating depth (bullet jump)

[tominboise]

I am wondering what the cause might be for a 5 shot group to contain 4 tight and one flyer or 3 tight and two flyers. Where the tight group might measure at 3/8" but with the flyer it opens up to an inch. Assuming I am using a good rest, don't have scope problems, etc, will playing with seating depth have an effect on resolving this? If so, more or less jump?

 

[243winxb]

Could be. Or

Brass not benchrest preped.

Or a action bedding problem.

The rifle may be just an average 1" gun.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Or its most likely you

 

[BenPerfected]

Or its most likely you

I agree, it is hard for most of us to be consistent on every shot. There are likely 10+ important steps to consistent CF accuracy. Miss one step & there goes the perfect group. In my case, reading the wind at long range is the most difficult for me. Next for me is prepping the brass consistently & seating the bullet with even pressure.
Ben

 

[INTJ]

I disagree with my brethren on this. With a stable rest and no other problems like the scope, bedding, etc., and assuming you are shooting in reasonably good conditions; it's not hard to be stable shot-to-shot at 100-200 yds.

Now when I get four in 3/8" with the fifth separated enough to make the group 1/2" or 5/8" at 200 yds, that might be me and I'll test again. But four in 3/8" and the fifth making the group 1" at 100 yds is likely just the real potential accuracy of the group.

If you shot a 10 shot group with that load it may well measure an inch, and within those 10 shots you might find four in 3/8".

So when that happens to me I keep tuning, testing both powder charge and then seating depth. I have many times seen "flyers" slowly move into the group during such tuning.

Realize my view is not the majority view on this, but I have never been one to go along with the crowd.

When we are tuning at 600 or 1000 yds then conditions can create flyers and so we have to account for that. Also, even minute shooter errors are amplified at longer ranges.

 

[DaveTooley]

Also what is the accuracy potential of the bullet. You don't say what you're shooting. Very few bullets are made to 3/8" tolerances.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I disagree with my brethren on this. With a stable rest and no other problems like the scope, bedding, etc., and assuming you are not shooting in reasonably good conditions; it's not hard to be stable shot-to-shot at 100-200 yds.

Now when I get four in 3/8" with the fifth separated enough to make the group 1/2" or 5/8" at 200 yds, that might be me and I'll test again. But four in 3/8" and the fifth making the group 1" at 100 yds is likely just the real potential accuracy of the group.

If you shot a 10 shot group with that load it may well measure an inch, and within those 10 shots you might find four in 3/8".

So when that happens to me I keep tuning, testing both powder charge and then seating depth. I have many times seen "flyers" slowly move into the group during such tuning.

Realize my view is not the majority view on this, but I have never been one to go along with the crowd.

When we are tuning at 600 or 1000 yds then conditions can create flyers and so we have to account for that. Also, even minute shooter errors are amplified at longer ranges.

There are a bunch of folks that shoot 10.5lb guns then go to 13.5lb guns that quickly become believers in gun handling. It isnt near as easy as one might believe

 

[D-4297]

There are a bunch of folks that shoot 10.5lb guns then go to 13.5lb guns that quickly become believers in gun handling. It isnt near as easy as one might believe

I tend to agree with Dusty on this issue , and if you take it a step farther , try a 18lb. F-TR rifle on a quality bipod , with a standard 600 yard TR load . Then wonder where that "Flyer" came from . If you are getting "consistent" flyers from a specific load , then I would question the Load . But if you are getting "consistent" flyers with varying loads , then I would look at gun handling issues , rather than load issues . It's always easier to blame the load . Gun handling is a learned process , and it requires extensive work , practice , and effort . My .02 cents worth .

 

[INTJ]

There are a bunch of folks that shoot 10.5lb guns then go to 13.5lb guns that quickly become believers in gun handling. It isnt near as easy as one might believe

I don't dispute that, but these guys shooting 10 lb guns are NOT making .6 MOA gun handling errors. Maybe .1 or .2.....

 

[K22]

Could be a bunch of things causing flyers but I know, at least for me, to maintain focus on fundamentals over a string of fire requires supreme concentration when you start shooting in the 1/2 moa and under range even at 100 yards with a heavy barrel rifle.

As far as the degree of "jump"; I have rifles, especially Rem 700's which have a lot of free bore that shoot just a tight as those with less free bore and less jump. The only way to know for sure is to test different seating depths because results can vary from rifle to rifle.

However I've found that the single most factor affecting group size is the selection of the bullet assuming you're using a suitable powder for the cartridge you're loading.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

AR or bolt gun, what mag is the scope? How far off the lands are you loading.

 

[tominboise]

OK - all good info. Some background - This particular rifle I traded into and am playing with it to see how it can do. It is a Savage 110 243 Win, sitting in some sort of laminated target stock, full floated, blind magazine, sporter weight barrel. Bullets are 68gr Barnes Matchburner and 95 gr Sierra BTHP. Powders are H380 under the Barnes and H414 under the Sierra's. Primers are Remington 9-1/2M and brass is some crappy Winchester. But my runout is less than 0.001" and I have been matching up sets by case weight. I found the nodes and have been playing around with the charge weights to tune it as best I can.

Scope is a 4.5-14X Nikon Buckmaster (not the best but not too bad) and I need to measure the jump on my current loads (just picked seating depth based on mag length and the manual to start.

 

[Lefty Trigger]

Happens to me all the time and I know it's me doing it. Get a great group going and I get all weird trying too hard to keep the last few in there and WHAM yanked the trigger,. I know I did it before the bullet hits the paper. Pisses me off every time but I know I'm the root cause.

 

[chop house]

It is a Savage 110 243 Win, sitting in some sort of laminated target stock, full floated, blind magazine, sporter weight barrel.

i am not an expert, nor a competition br shooter, but i have LOTS of trigger time on a variety of savage rifles. I find it difficult to not upset the rifle in the bags due to heavy bolt lift... by that i mean i can get the rifle to track, return to almost perfect zero... then open the bolt and the rear bag has 'settled'. Often i feel i am shooting 5 one shot groups, rather than a single 5 shot group.

as i have said before, i have several savage rifles in various states of tweaking and it is frustrating how many of them are stuck at being only a 'true' 0.6 moa rifle in my hands. there is almost always the occasional 3/8" group, btw.

 

[JFrank]

OK - all good info. Some background - This particular rifle I traded into and am playing with it to see how it can do. It is a Savage 110 243 Win, sitting in some sort of laminated target stock, full floated, blind magazine, sporter weight barrel. Bullets are 68gr Barnes Matchburner and 95 gr Sierra BTHP. Powders are H380 under the Barnes and H414 under the Sierra's. Primers are Remington 9-1/2M and brass is some crappy Winchester. But my runout is less than 0.001" and I have been matching up sets by case weight. I found the nodes and have been playing around with the charge weights to tune it as best I can.

Scope is a 6-18X Nikon Buckmaster (not the best but not too bad) and I need to measure the jump on my current loads (just picked seating depth based on mag length and the manual to start.

Tough for a Savage to not spit a round.
Mine always does even on my Birthday it does it.

 

[Ccrider]

There are a bunch of folks that shoot 10.5lb guns then go to 13.5lb guns that quickly become believers in gun handling. It isnt near as easy as one might believe

So, are you saying the lighter gun is less sensitive to how it is handled tha the heavier gun?

 

[Dusty Stevens]

So, are you saying the lighter gun is less sensitive to how it is handled tha the heavier gun?

Just the opposite. The 13.5 will improve their scores and they see their gun handling was lacking as soon as somebody points it out to them. They usually win or place good in hv and not so well in the rest

 

[Ccrider]

Just the opposite. The 13.5 will improve their scores and they see their gun handling was lacking as soon as somebody points it out to them. They usually win or place good in hv and not so well in the rest

That’s what I am seeing. Just wondering if I was the anomaly.

 

[DJB]

I t can be very hard to eliminate the one shot out of the group problems. Why? Because there can be several reasons why that is happening. Bad brass, scope ,front rest not set up right, bags not filled right, poor load, fouled barrel, badly wore barrel. The list goes on and on. Tominboise stated he was using crappy brass. WHY????? If you want to see consistency you have to get all your ducks in a row. It helps to be anal about what you are doing. If you know something in your set up is not as perfect as you can get it, replace, or change it. I anneal every time I reload my neck turned Lapua brass after every firing, and once in a while I find one that seats the bullet with more effort. I put these aside for a chronograph test. After shooting 5 rounds that seated harder I had a speed change as high as 50 FT per second, and 4 of the five were out side of previous group shot with the same seating pressure, which I do by feel. I do not have a seating gauge yet, but will soon.
I cant count how many times I was asked by another shooter why their not shooting well, and found a lot of things that were pretty obvious why they were not shooting well. Some not so obvious. Lots of little things can cause your flyers, and with out asking, and being able to go over' and go through their rifle, rest, and bag set up, loads, barrel condition as far as barrel wear, barrel fouling, etc etc etc. I had one shooter complaining about poor grouping with his 22-250. I asked how often he cleans his rifle which he has been shooting a lot, for the past 2 years. His answer.....I don"t clean it. Another said about every 200 or so rounds. Bore scoped em both. Both extremely copper, and carbon fouled. I have had many shooters tell me that their barrels are clean. Bore scoped. Yep you guessed it. Terribly fouled. From my many experiences it can be hard to be online with a shooter (s) trying to figure out why the guns are not shooting very well. Some issues are obvious. With some you just really don't know his or her set up's etc etc.
Bottom line is..... if you want to have your rifles shooting well, and with consistency you have to go through every thing you are doing, and using. Even then, I wish you good luck curing the flyers. I wish there was one thing that causes this problem. Lots of times it is more then one thing. Doug

 

[Dessert]

I tend to agree with the gun handling as being the source of probably most of our shooting errors. We focus on the hardware and overlook the software which is us. Try getting consistent groups with a small bore rifle. You hold your nose wrong and you’ll get a flyer. My .02.