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Giraud vs. Henderson Case Trimmer

Nice group, really nice. Tell us about the rifle.

BAT M, Krieger 1.45 straight, Richards Microfit stock with 6 pieces of mallory metal in the butt. LRB Rudder and aluminum fore end rails. 300 WSM, Berger 215s. I managed three IBS HG screamer groups with it in three match weekends.

This is just a temporary stock. Before I packed my lathe and mill for moving this January, I chambered the barrel and got the stock so I could finish it with hand tools. I had an LRB stock on order, but it didn't arrive until I had packed the milling machine.

I finished the stock in my apartment garage with a drill and a dremel. It doesn't look great but it tracks. My intent has always been to finish the LRB when we get moved into our new house next month. However, this stock works so well that I'll keep it on standby. I also need to get a properly fitting butt plate and put a finish on the stock.

ADC2D881-C226-4933-A145-550DD806A6F9.jpeg
 
Guys like Tyler here need to learn to read and understand the actual words and learn to tune out the scary little voices inside his head.

Tyler is misrepresenting what I said.

When he cant debate something based on facts, he attacks the person he disagrees with. I think they call that Scarecrow.
You just can't stand it, can you? In the other thread I asked for facts to back up your claim, but you provided none.
 
Back on Point:

I'm not a competitive shooter. However, I take my reloading seriously and case trimming is an important step. I am reloading multiple calibers ranging .224, 6mm, 6.5mm and .30 cal. Also, I am doing case forming and cartridge conversions. In past I have used WFT and also Giraud 3-way trimmer attached to a mini-lathe. I am mentally working through the two different systems ... I guess this is my flow of conscious.

A couple of months ago I placed an order for a Giraud Power Trimmer (benchtop) along with multiple cutter heads and cartridge inserts to meet my needs. Obviously, the Henderson Case Trimmer has me questioning what is the best unit for my purposes.

I like the simplicity of the Henderson with only the need of a few cutter heads and 2 collets to cover a wide range of cartridges. That would save me the need for buying 8-10 cartridge inserts for the Giraud. However, even with the increased price of all the cartridge inserts, the Giraud still costing less. I don't mind paying more if there is value/performance.

When doing case forming or conversions I like doing large batches (1,000 cases or more). Speed is important when doing volume. This seems to favor the Giraud, but not getting fingers beat up is a tempting feature of the Henderson with its case holder.

In order to fit over the mandrel, the Henderson system requires the necks to be expanded before trimming. This isn't an issue with finished clean brass, but might be problematic for bulk brass as well as case forming/conversion. After rough cutting and initial sizing operations during case forming, such as forming 300BO, there is often a bur both on the outside and inside of the case mouth. This may require a couple of extra steps (deburring case mouth and then expanding) before the Henderson system can be used....

Monkey Wrench: How is the Henderson unit any different then using a 21st Century Powered Mini-Lathe with their new 3-Way Trimmer head?
- both systems use a collet system for holding the cases
- both systems trimming length is based on OAL
- both systems require case necks to be expanded in advance of trimming

Lots of questions.... anyone have any answers? Thanks for any insight/feedback.
 
You just can't stand it, can you? In the other thread I asked for facts to back up your claim, but you provided none.
I owe you nothing Tyler. I already provided all the facts I am willing to provide. It is now up to each reader to decide what it means to them and to do your own testing and decide for yourself what that means to you.

Who I am and what I know does not necessarily apply to you with who you are and what you know and what your objectives are.

I pointed out the issue, now take it upon yourself to prove it to yourself. Or don't, I don't care. Either way, its on you, not me. Put your big boy pants on and stop looking to me for answers you need to find for yourself.
 
I owe you nothing Tyler. I already provided all the facts I am willing to provide. It is now up to each reader to decide what it means to them and to do your own testing and decide for yourself what that means to you.

Who I am and what I know does not necessarily apply to you with who you are and what you know and what your objectives are.

I pointed out the issue, now take it upon yourself to prove it to yourself. Or don't, I don't care. Either way, its on you, not me. Put your big boy pants on and stop looking to me for answers you need to find for yourself.
I don't take claims without evidence. I'm not spending an extra $1500 to "prove it for myself" when you are the one making the claim and claim to have the data.

You made a claim, the burden of proof is on you!
 
I don't take claims without evidence. I'm not spending an extra $1500 to "prove it for myself" when you are the one making the claim and claim to have the data.

You made a claim, the burden of proof is on you!
And you have enough brass to call me the troll.
Please stop stalking me, and go solve your own problems.
 
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I think the graphs pretty much says why Henderson produced the better ES/SD numbers. But . . . to really be able to come to any conclusion, one needs to repeat the test to see if the results are the same. Going through a test just one time just doesn't confirm anything. With that said, when I look at the graphs and focus on the beginning of the seating), it appears to me that the Giraud cutter may not be cutting as smooth as the cutter in the Henderson. When a cutter is not cutting smoothly, I'd expect to see a graph like the one I see with the Giraud. And yeah, it doesn't seem to me like that little difference in cutting angle, for the angle alone, would make that much difference. It'd be interesting to take a bore scope and take a close look at the chamfers after trimming and compare.

View attachment 1294007 View attachment 1294008

What I find interesting is a variety of factors that a graph such as this cannot tell us.

I don't have either of these trimmers, but my understanding is that they both trim to length and deburr inside and outside in a single step.

For all that to occur, there's alot of moving parts.

The necks need to be sized to a certain size before length trim, or it will affect chamfer size on one side or the other. So tuning of the deburr settings can have an affect on seating force.

At the speeds these appear to spin, it is very aggressive and may affect brass hardness as a result of trimming.

With these points in mind, it would be interesting to compare a more gentle hand trim and deburr to the automated systems and see how the three methods compare for seating force.

Most guys are using an expander mandrel after sizing... But is this operation being performed before or after neck trim and deburr? My assumption is the expander operation should be last regardless of trimming method for best results.
 
To the OP, thanks for posting. Your video is informative. I saw a similar spike in seating pressure between chamfered and unchamfered brass demonstrated in another video. Would really like to know if the difference shows up on paper.
 
What I find interesting is a variety of factors that a graph such as this cannot tell us.

I don't have either of these trimmers, but my understanding is that they both trim to length and deburr inside and outside in a single step.

For all that to occur, there's alot of moving parts.

The necks need to be sized to a certain size before length trim, or it will affect chamfer size on one side or the other. So tuning of the deburr settings can have an affect on seating force.
Yes, so for consistency's sake, the cases all should have consistent dimension to get consistent 3-way trimming.

At the speeds these appear to spin, it is very aggressive and may affect brass hardness as a result of trimming.
If the cutting heads are working properly, they'll not create much heat nor work the metal enough to change hardness or ductility (based on my limited experience with years of working with various alloy sheet metals).

With these points in mind, it would be interesting to compare a more gentle hand trim and deburr to the automated systems and see how the three methods compare for seating force.
When I compared my results using a Giraud vs. what I'd get with my Wilson hand trimmed & chamfering cases, it wasn't that seating force that I found much difference. What I found was that chamfering with my hand tools produced inconsistent chamfers, not just in depth, but more importantly to me was the chamfers were not always square enough to the case mouth resulting in runouts that had a wide variance. And that issue with the chamfers was not due to variation in neck thickness as I turn my case necks.

Most guys are using an expander mandrel after sizing... But is this operation being performed before or after neck trim and deburr? My assumption is the expander operation should be last regardless of trimming method for best results.
Like "most guys", I use an expander mandrel after sizing (when I'm not neck sizing with my Lee collet die) and either way, my last operation in my brass prep process is trimming with my 3-way trimmer. All parts of my brass in the end turn out to be very consistent, from case length, to shoulder junctions to the amount of chamfer and deburring on the case mouth. I can't think of why "expander operation" as the last operation would provide any benefit???
 
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There is room for courteous disagreement, but pissing matches don't serve anyone.

Back to the discussion/comparison of two quality tools. After my earlier post this morning, I spoke with Todd Henderson about his case trimmer. Let me start by stating that he quickly returned my call and graciously entertained all of my questions and enthusiasm. He fielded all of my questions about his tool and was willing to discuss its application ... pros and cons. As another post mentioned, Todd had nothing contradictory or unflattering to say about Giraud. His personality alone was enough to make me want to buy his tool.

There is a lot of engineering and continuous upgrading in the unit since its inception. Henderson has recently changed the power source to an engine and housing that is better suited to their design. I have a powered neck turning lathe from 21st Century, and was curious as to Henderson envisioned the next evolution of his product. At some point there will be a neck turning headstock. The 21st Century lathe spins the case, whereas his version would rotate the cutter head with the case stationary. Henderson's simplistic solution to OAL repeatability would be an improvement over the current stop block used on the 21st Century, which requires set-up each time you change cutters/cartridges.

We discussed whether or not the Henderson was the right tool for doing case conversion/case forming, such as 300BO or 300HAMR. First, it is not designed to remove large quantities of brass... this is still the job of a cut-off saw or endmill cutter like the WFT or Dillon Trimmer. Second, it is designed for use with light cuts on finished cases (sized and properly expanded necks). Unfortunately, at this point in time it doesn't seem like it is a good fit for this application. Rough formed/trimmed brass (cut-off saw or end mill cutter) usually has a bur on both inside and outside of case mouth, which would need to be removed and then necks expanded before it could be run on the Henderson. Whereas, this is something that can be done with the Giraud.

I am looking forward to Henderson developing of a neck turning/reaming headstock to complete this tool system making it a one-stop precision solution to a few critical case prep steps.
 
Like "most guy", I use an expander mandrel after sizing (when I'm not neck sizing with my Lee collet die) and either way, my last operation in my brass prep process is trimming with my 3-way trimmer. All parts of my brass in the end turn out to be very consistent, from case length, to shoulder junction to the amount of chamfer and deburring on the case mouth. I can't think of why "expander operation" as the last operation would provide any benefit???

Thank you Straight Shooter for taking the time to provide a clear response.

Regarding the expander operation being last, I would think it would help smooth out any irregularities caused by whichever trimming method is used. I'd bet if you look closely enough even the deburr chamfer has a slight burr or rolled edge. That may be enough to cause the difference in seating force variation.

It's just a thought that if we are going to evaluate the various trimming methods, it might be worthwhile to examine the order of operations as well. Perhaps making the expander operation last will even out the seating force results. Just a thought to consider FWIW.
 
Regarding the expander operation being last, I would think it would help smooth out any irregularities caused by whichever trimming method is used. I'd bet if you look closely enough even the deburr chamfer has a slight burr or rolled edge. That may be enough to cause the difference in seating force variation.
Some time ago, I actually did "look closely" at my chamfered brass using my borescope as I suspected I was having an issue with a slight burr on the inside of the neck at the edge of the chamfer. At the same time, I had slowed down the speed of the cutter to see how well that might do as read some posters suggesting a slower speed provided better cuts. But when I did that, I got chamfer cuts that were like chatter and not smooth at all along with a "slight burr". Once I sped up the speed, the result was a much cleaner cut and without the slight burr at the edge of the chamfer. Having done all this and looked closely at what was going on with my brass, is why I commented in this thread that it'd be interesting to take a borescope look at how these two units compare in this regard.

BTW: Some what later from the above speed adjustments, I decided to experiment with the size of chamfer and found that the smaller chamfer also helped eliminate any inside burr from the process. It kinda just makes sense to me (again, because I've worked with sheet metal a lot) that this would help since the chamfering cuts are smaller and less apt to leave a burr.

It's just a thought that if we are going to evaluate the various trimming methods, it might be worthwhile to examine the order of operations as well. Perhaps making the expander operation last will even out the seating force results. Just a thought to consider FWIW.
As a life long tinkerer, I couldn't agree more. :)
 
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I can only speak for the Giraud trimmer as I have never used the Henderson, but it does an exceedingly good job on both the inside and outside chamfer. The inside and outside chamfer are adjustable when using the Giraud trimmer, so its output can be tailored within reason to match the specific brass being trimmed.

FWIW - the effect of using different bushings and/or mandrels to size a specific Lot# of brass are really negligible as far as having to adjust the blade setting on the Giraud. That's probably because for a single specified cartridge, the amount by which the bushings and/or mandrels that are typically used don't vary by all that much (i.e. a few thousandths at most). The most important point is for all the cases within a single prep to be trimmed consistently. What I have found to be more noticeable in terms of adjusting the blade setting is the difference in neck wall thickness between different brands of brass. For those that do not turn necks, using a different brand of brass with a different neck thickness may require re-setting the blade position slightly to ensure both the inside and outside chamfer are as desired.

As long as the there is some detectable amount of chamfer on the outside (i.e. the corner has been knocked off to the extent you can see it), and the inside chamfer is acceptable, I do not attempt to re-set the blade position on the cutter head. It's more trouble than it's worth. I simply make sure I use the same blade setting for an entire prep, even if the inside/outside chamfer are a tiny bit different than a prep with a different Lot# or brand of brass. For example, I recently switched from Lapua to Alpha SRP brass for my .308 Win F-TR rifles. The inside/outside chamfers on the Alpha brass were just a tick different than Lapua, for which the cutter head had been previously set, but hey were both quite acceptable, so I left the blade where it had been. The other key to using the Giraud is that you need to spin the cases by hand while they are trimming to ensure that a uniform bevel/chamfer is obtained all the way around the case mouth. I generally do at least three turns per case, maybe four if the brass is being chamfered for the first time (virgin brass).

As far as the two different trimmers causing different seating force, I am of the opinion that something else was likely in play there. There is no reason that the relative amount and/or "smoothness" of chamfer at the very edge of the case mouth should cause a noticeable change in seating force, unless the inside chamfer with one trimmer was set sub-optimally (i.e. the inside chamfer was insufficient). Otherwise, the dimensions of the bullet and chamfer are such the boattail and bearing surface of the bullet is likely only touching the very inner bottom edge of the chamfer during the seating process. If a bullet is seated with more than half a caliber of shank in the neck, a thousandth or two difference in the length of case wall gripping the bullet isn't likely to make a huge difference either, especially as long as all the cases within a single brass prep are the same. Finally, even if the chamfer on one of the trimmers actually did result in a slight difference in seating force, that doesn't mean those bullets would undergo a different force during the actual firing process, which is all that really counts.
 
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I've often thought that measuring seating force is a means by which the hand loader can identify the root cause of seating force variance.

Seating force variation itself is not the end game, it's a way to evaluate the results of the entire reloading process and how it can be optimized for a better end result.

I do believe that the quality of the inside chamfer is the most important contributor to seating force variation, and then inside neck diameter variation as the second place factor. I dont believe hardness variation is much of a problem as it will manifest itself as inside diameter variation as a result of spring back as a reflection of brass hardness variation.
 
When I compared my results using a Giraud vs. what I'd get with my Wilson hand trimmed & chamfering cases, it wasn't that seating force that I found much difference. What I found was that chamfering with my hand tools produced inconsistent chamfers, not just in depth, but more importantly to me was the chamfers were not always square enough to the case mouth resulting in runouts that had a wide variance. And that issue with the chamfers was not due to variation in neck thickness as I turn my case necks.

On issue of chamfering, An inside chamfer serves two purposes.

1. It gives a the neck a wedge effect for starting bullets enabling the bullet to gradually enter the neck. Since the bullets I use have either a taper or a radius is this necessary or needed ? As you point out uneven chamfers could affect bullet release

2. It removes any burrs on the inside of the neck which could damage the jacket. Even though the jacket gets shredded by the rifling once it is in the barrel burrs could affect the bullet release.

F Class John did a couple of videos a few months back comparing chamfers. My biggest takeaway was the results were inconsistent and even contradictory when it came to putting holes in the targets.



My solution to any squareness issues was simple. I stopped doing inside neck chamfering. The burr situation was easily solvable by using a bronze bore brush to deburr the inside of the neck after trimming. It works and the case mouth remains perfectly square
 
Did my first caliber swap on my Henderson tonight. Was painless. I color coded my length set screws with colored electrical tape so I can just grab and go. I did adjust my inside chamfer, that took a minute but I got it where I like it and won’t have to fiddle with it again. When I was done I measured 10 and they were all identical. Sized before I trimmed and with my gauges they were holding within a thou on the bumps. I’m happy that I sprung for the Henderson. I was enjoying trimming for a change. Before that, when I got done sizing and if I needed to trim it was like a chore I avoided, like cleaning rain gutters. Now I’m probably going to go through more components so I’m going to see if the guys at Henderson will kinda help out with that, send me some bullets/primers/powder to offset this. If I could keep from laughing when I called them that’d be pretty funny to tell them.

Cool tool :cool:
 
The question is how much Chamfer do you need to put on a case? Apparently, I’ve been not doing enough because those cases are much more chamfered than any of mine that I’ve done.
 

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