Getting There From 50 to 100 on the Tuner!

[Williwaw]

Understanding pc and tuners a bit really helps put a number to that, answering your question, mostly. Because pc can only occur at top of bbl swing but the gun can shoot well at top and bottom, that alone would suggest 50% on the surface. But then you have a fair number of people that tune for different ammo speeds to hit the same poi, which is in fact tuning for pc.

I work with a slightly different theory than this. In my opinion PC can only occur on the upward barrel swing. I imagine subsequent tuner settings(in one click increments)starting at the bottom, reaching maximum rate of rise in the mid-slope, and then the diminishing rate of rise as it rolls over at the top.

Going over the top is sometimes dramatically demonstrated when an especially slow round gets a bit of negative compensation because its exit was somewhere on the following downward cycle.

A second thought .... the amount of PC attainable is dependent on the rate of barrel rise and the velocity range in your ammo. I suspect the amount and/or rate of muzzle deflection required to achieve significant PC at 100 yards is beyond the capacity of our rifles. I have concluded, without having ever tested it, that a good fifty yard tune will help at 100 and likely can't be improved upon.

 

[Williwaw]

grauhanen, I have reasonably good data on 2 of my own rifles. The difference between the best tune and the worst tune was 16% and 30% smaller on group diameter at 50M.​

Comparing the best tune vs. the average, the difference was 5% and 19%.

I still feel like our data is very limited at this point. It will be interesting to continue our learning.

Thanks for this and everything else that you have been sharing. This is so helpful and informative.

 

[linekin]

As Mike suggested.. let's discuss tuner variations. Movement of the tuner direction and results one has obtained in different distance settings. Namely, the difference between 50 and 100 yards. I have heard this on several occasions that one could benefit from using two different tunes for each distance. So my curiosity strikes me to want to know more about it and why this might be the case. Please substantiate your statements with facts.. not your keyboard opinions. Thanks

In the other test center thread I had mentioned moving my tuner 4(mighta been 3?) clicks out from where it was set at for 50yds & saw an improvement in the vertical dispersion. I also mentioned that afterwards out of curiosity resighted & shot again at 50yds & also saw an improvement.
It was with a new to me Ezell tuner in which I hadn't had perfect conditions for tuning so perhaps I didn't have the best setting. Nor do I know that I do now. What I do know is I have shot a 100yd match since & had my best scores to date.
I have not shot the rifle at 50 again to substantiate anything but did see I made an improvement @50 by adjusting for 100.
I will say that in Mike's test, or any method for that matter, the better shooting rifles/ammo's groups start getting pretty hard to differentiate as you're nearing & leaving the upward swing.
I think if you can decrease vertical at 100 it will do the same at 50 & tighten things up so to speak. JMO

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Thanks for this and everything else that you have been sharing. This is so helpful and informative.

I agree Mr. Whidden has the best means to provide information from a controlled condition. I would love to see test results of a rifle tuned at 100 first then compare those tuner settings at 50 using the same lots of ammo.

Lee

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

In the other test center thread I had mentioned moving my tuner 4(mighta been 3?) clicks out from where it was set at for 50yds & saw an improvement in the vertical dispersion. I also mentioned that afterwards out of curiosity resighted & shot again at 50yds & also saw an improvement.
It was with a new to me Ezell tuner in which I hadn't had perfect conditions for tuning so perhaps I didn't have the best setting. Nor do I know that I do now. What I do know is I have shot a 100yd match since & had my best scores to date.
I have not shot the rifle at 50 again to substantiate anything but did see I made an improvement @50 by adjusting for 100.
I will say that in Mike's test, or any method for that matter, the better shooting rifles/ammo's groups start getting pretty hard to differentiate as you're nearing & leaving the upward swing.
I think if you can decrease vertical at 100 it will do the same at 50 & tighten things up so to speak. JMO

Keith, it seems you did the reversal meaning tuned at 100 and results are good at 50. I do not see why results would not still be good at 50 after the adjustment for 100. it is just the opposite of what I had said itty bitty at 50 will provide comparable results at 100.
now on being at the right setting you will know when you can take different lots and get the same results without touching the tuner.

Lee

 

[grauhanen]

Comparing the best tune vs. the average, the difference was 5% and 19%.

I still feel like our data is very limited at this point. It will be interesting to continue our learning.

Indeed. The published data, whether online or in print, is very scanty. Even Bryan Litz's studies were at best inconclusive.

With that in mind, it seems that shooters should have a better idea what can be reliably and consistently achieved with tuners. In RFBR, with the best of lot tested ammo a tuner that improves results only a little -- perhaps similar to reducing a group, which of course is not used here, by only as much as 5 - 10% -- can be said to have done enough to improve a score enough to make it respectable.

Many shooters new to tuners may have the false notion that tuners work a little more dramatically, and with all kinds of ammo. Tuners don't work to give improvements that will shrink groups by half or even by a third. Shooters unfamiliar with tuners should be disabused of the idea that a tuner is a trick to improve inconsistent ammo and that they make a significant and dramatic difference.

 

[Intell]

In my opinion small groups don't always mean it’s in tune if they were shot in calm conditions.
Most of the BR guns I’ve owned would shoot tiny groups at 3-4 different settings. Next these 3-4 settings need to be tested in some stiff wind to show the real tune that bucks the wind the best.
An out of tune gun can compete and even win, I won 3 state tournaments one year with an out of tune gun, I just had to be careful how I shot it.
Later same year I tried a different setting at a calm evening match that was equal in group size to my previous setting.
The next match was in a bad wind and I discovered the same ammo would now buck the wind and was easier to shoot. What would have been a hard 50 or 10 ring was now a 100 or an Ir50/50 X.
As far as tuning distance goes, Harry Deneen told me once he tuned his guns indoors at 25yds. I didn’t necessarily agree, but you can’t argue with Harry’s success, he was the man to beat for several years.

 

[linekin]

Keith, it seems you did the reversal meaning tuned at 100 and results are good at 50. I do not see why results would not still be good at 50 after the adjustment for 100. it is just the opposite of what I had said itty bitty at 50 will provide comparable results at 100.
now on being at the right setting you will know when you can take different lots and get the same results without touching the tuner.

Lee

No Lee, I wouldn’t try & tune at 100 outdoors. I hadn’t had stellar conditions to tune the new tuner but felt I was close at 50.
Then shot at 100 later this year & was able to shrink some vertical out of my groups.
Then out of curiosity on the same outing shot a 50 yd target & felt like it shot better than where I had it previously set.
So, I am in agreement with you (I think) there may not be a difference in settings between yardages. If there is, it ain’t much & I won’t hesitate to adjust accordingly.
We’re not talking of wholesale changes here I don’t think?

 

[USMCDOC]

No Lee, I wouldn’t try & tune at 100 outdoors. I hadn’t had stellar conditions to tune the new tuner but felt I was close at 50.
Then shot at 100 later this year & was able to shrink some vertical out of my groups.
Then out of curiosity on the same outing shot a 50 yd target & felt like it shot better than where I had it previously set.
So, I am in agreement with you (I think) there may not be a difference in settings between yardages. If there is, it ain’t much & I won’t hesitate to adjust accordingly.
We’re not talking of wholesale changes here I don’t think?

this is something i wanted to know.. how much movement in the tuner would be realized if this is a "thing" in reality..

 

[USMCDOC]

we're suppose to have fairly calm conditions today compared to what we have had all year here.. so this might be a good day to see if i see something outdoors.. worth trying

 

[Rsadams]

I shoot out to 300 occasionally but stay at 200 normally and no matter what you do wind is the biggest enemy.... Even a very very light wind will move rimfire bullets ALOT....

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

No Lee, I wouldn’t try & tune at 100 outdoors. I hadn’t had stellar conditions to tune the new tuner but felt I was close at 50.
Then shot at 100 later this year & was able to shrink some vertical out of my groups.
Then out of curiosity on the same outing shot a 50 yd target & felt like it shot better than where I had it previously set.
So, I am in agreement with you (I think) there may not be a difference in settings between yardages. If there is, it ain’t much & I won’t hesitate to adjust accordingly.
We’re not talking of wholesale changes here I don’t think?

Sorry Keith didn't mean to make it sound like you tuned at 100. I should have said your results were like you did the reversal.
FYI I would not attempt to try and tune at 100 even if I had access to a tunnel, the reason being tuning is the whole package not just the tuner increasing distance just amplifies any minute disturbance of the rifle.

Lee

 

[CharlieNC]

FromKolbe's instrumented barrel;



The green line represents the range of barrel exit time for the various velocities, whereby the faster exits at a lesser icline than the slower., Notice the slope is steeper, not the same at times a bit less than 2.0ms, and could be used for more compensation such as would be required at 100 vs 50yd. Is that different enough to matter, is someone capable of harnessing this? Without more studies such as this we will never know for sure.

 

[Jpete]

I am a long range rimfire steel shooter. shooting steel out to 400yds. I use EC V2 tuners. I start at 50yds shooting 3 shot groups and move 5 marks. I take the best of best groups at to 200yds. I do the same as you are saying, moving 2 marks at a time each way. I am looking for vertical only. not worring about the wind. On a very good no wind day I tuned at 400yds, moving only moving a few marks.

Are you using the 200 yard setting as a baseline for other yardages?

 

[grauhanen]

It's a lot harder finding ammo that shoots consistently at 100 than at 50. At 50 yards good match ammo has few flyers. At 100 the same match ammos have more time to show irregular trajectories that are not yet obvious at half the distance.

What this means is that match ammo doesn't have "flyers" at 50 and tuners can act to improve results without errant rounds. At 100, however, match ammo can have "flyers" -- errant shots that don't go where they are expected due to the impact on trajectory of bullet imperfection in shape and form. For example, imperfectly formed bullet heels or center of gravity flaws will increasingly deteriorate accuracy as distance increases.

A question that follows is the degree to which tuners, however well set, are able to eliminate "flyers" or even mitigate them.

 

[USMCDOC]

I did a test yesterday at a hundred. Discovered something about my rifle I thought was right, but it wasn’t. The tune

 

[linekin]

I did a test yesterday at a hundred. Discovered something about my rifle I thought was right, but it wasn’t. The tune

I'd like to know what you found if you'd care to share it.

 

[USMCDOC]

I'd like to know what you found if you'd care to share it.

i don't have any more 100 yard targets.. so i used this 50 meter target at 100 yards
First i was shooting at 50 meters to check the tune. I found that moving the tuner in 3 clicks the rifle seemed to be shooting better.. What was happening to me is that i was doing really well at 50 yards and 50 meters.. I mean.. pretty constantly 200 with 16 - 20 X's all the time. In fact in a Regional Match recently, I shot a new National Record in my category of a 400-40X. I had never changed the tuner since i bought the rifle. Always trusted that it was correct. I have two March scopes. One is a 10-60 with the 30mm tube and the other 10-60 is the HM with the 34mm tube. I knew that the rifle shot differently with each scope.. Meaning that the tuner had to be moved due the weight change from the different scopes.. In the past when i tested this, it appeared that one click in, made the difference in tune between the two scopes. And of course that's what i used.. and i was doing well with it like that. But the rifle would shoot great at 50 yards and 50 meters, but had been falling apart at 100 yards.
So when all the talk from John about the results he had seen in the tunnel got me to thinking about why the rifle was not shooting like it should at 100 yards. And after the discussion in this thread, i decided to try something with the rifle.
So this target that i shot at 100 yards.. I started on the top left. Cuz that's what i always do.. i start a target on the top left.. put the come up on the rifle of 6 minutes on the scope and shot my first sighter.. that's the shot at 1 o'clock in the 8 ring.. came down 4 left 4 and shot again.. in the same condition and shot that X.. The wind changed, so i went to the top right target to use it as the sighter target from that point forward, cuz i didn't want mess up that second shot on the first target.. shot a couple of sighters, till the condition came back.. then shot the middle left target and shot an X. Wind changed again.. so back the top right target and started shooting sighters.. when the condition came back i shot at the bottom left target and shot that 10 (which might plug as an X). Moved to the right bottom target and shot again.. but got caught by a pick up somewhere between me and the target.. (never saw it till after the shot and then the flags came up) so back to the sighter target on the top right.. waited again till the condition came back and shot at the middle right target and shot the high 10.. . So what setting was that tuner at.. three clicks further in from where i had it before hand. So the rifle was in tune well enough for 50 yards and 50 meters.. but not well enough for 100 yards. Hence the change in the tune and difference between yardage.. So is this what John is seeing. People sending rifles in whom only shoot at 50 yards and 50 meters.. were seeing good results and believing that their rifle was in tune when in fact it wasn't really in tune. Hence the feeling that there were/are two different tunings for the different yardages. So how much change did i make on the tuner.. 3 clicks further in. I had never explored that setting before.. Another thing that i found is that this rifle shoots better without the spring in the tuner. And at the time, it seemed like it was wanting to shoot better with the tuner not locked down.. vs locking it down.. But yesterday, i tried to test it again at 50 yards. I was on a different range. cuz the one i usually use was closed for repairs. The range i used yesterday has a up hill slope to it, at 50 yards, the line is on the top of a hump. When wind is coming in from the left at about 10 o'clock.. it will hit the back side of that hump cuz of the dip that is there and as the bullet passes that point..the wind will send the bullet out the top at 100 yards. can't do justified tests at 100 yards there.. bad enough that the other range i shoot on.. the wind is constantly "swirling" on that range.. If the wind flag at 25 is going right to left and the flag at 50 meters is going left to right.. don't shoot.. they don't cancel each other.. if the flag at 25 is going right to left and the flag at 50 meters is pointing straight down.. the shot will go into the 9 ring out the top! But if both flags are equal right to left.. you will get the standard elliptical effect from the wind at 50 meters and your results will be very predictable and i can shoot that condition with confidence of an X every time. . So I did end up taking the spring out and tested the rifle with the set screw and ball bearing in the tuner and out of the tuner.. without the spring in the tuner, I was getting equal results with the rifle whether it was lose at the setting i had found or with it locked down. It didn't make a difference. Odd how that is.
Here is some targets from back when i had bought a case of Lapua Long Range blind and used some SK Pistol Match Special at 100 yards..

This first target was the SK ammo..
This next target is the Lapua Long Range

Both of these targets were shot with the older March being on the rifle.. not the High Master scope. That is a 100-10X group there. For those of you that don't know.. even though that is a sling target i am shooting on. the dia of the F-Class target X ring is about the same on both targets.. being that the one used for F-Class is just a tad smaller.. but not much. Also, in Smallbore F-Class the X is worst edge.. but the 10 is best edge. So that means that the center ring is both the X ring and the 10 ring as well.. If you touch the line on the inside.. it's a ten.. if you are clean on the inside.. it's an X.

So now you are asking.. what ammo did i used in the test for the tuner on that 50 meter target at 100 yards and again yesterday at 50 yards.. Lapua Pistol King. I am not fully convinced that this setting is the be all end all setting. Because this rifle has shot so well in the past at 50 yards and 50 meters with the tuner on 123. But with my testing, it appears that it shoots better at 100 yards with the tuner set at 120. I am not totally satisfied that the rifle is shooting better at 50/50. Because of the groups sizes i got yesterday on the 50 meter target being shot at 50 yards. Oh i shot some 200's with 18 and 19 X's .. but they weren't pretty.. they were barely's .. Only way I will know for sure.. is when i test it again this coming Sat with my Lapua Midas Plus that i have had for the last 3 years.. Only time i shot that ammo is in really big matches.. and that's it.. it shoots so well in any rifle i have had.. I won't shoot it up in club matches or the such like so many do.. I don't practiced with my best ammo.. i practice with lower tier ammo that i know is predictable.. As long as i have some sort of consistency from it.. I will be ok with it.. difference being from an inside ten to an outside X is slight in this game.. So if the ammo will give me constant tens and slight X's .. it's good enough for practice.. And i know with my practice ammo.. where the flyers go.. so with that.. if i get one.. i know it wasn't me or the condition, it was just inconsistent ammo on that shot.

And another thing.. that 9 ring on the 50 meter target is about the same size as the X ring on that 100 yard target.. just saying

 

[linekin]

Awesome write up Doc, thanks! I've never considered the spring & ball out of the Harrell's or that it would have an effect on anything.
I have no idea why I went out on mine but it seems better. Was there a reason you went in? I know Mike says he can tell by group shapes but I struggle to see it. I just do the trial & error thing.

 

[USMCDOC]

Awesome write up Doc, thanks! I've never considered the spring & ball out of the Harrell's or that it would have an effect on anything.
I have no idea why I went out on mine but it seems better. Was there a reason you went in? I know Mike says he can tell by group shapes but I struggle to see it. I just do the trial & error thing.

well i went out at first too.. but i was not getting any love anywhere on the tuner.. hence why i started moving the other way on it