Getting There From 50 to 100 on the Tuner!

[USMCDOC]

As Mike suggested.. let's discuss tuner variations. Movement of the tuner direction and results one has obtained in different distance settings. Namely, the difference between 50 and 100 yards. I have heard this on several occasions that one could benefit from using two different tunes for each distance. So my curiosity strikes me to want to know more about it and why this might be the case. Please substantiate your statements with facts.. not your keyboard opinions. Thanks

 

[grauhanen]

What kind of "facts" are you looking for?

There's no widely accepted agreement on what and how tuners do what they are supposed to do. For example, do tuners work by achieving positive compensation? Do they cause the round to exit the muzzle at the same muzzle position each time? Do they achieve a "stopped muzzle"? Can a system that works well at one distance work just as well at all reasonable .22LR distances ?

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

As Mike suggested.. let's discuss tuner variations. Movement of the tuner direction and results one has obtained in different distance settings. Namely, the difference between 50 and 100 yards. I have heard this on several occasions that one could benefit from using two different tunes for each distance. So my curiosity strikes me to want to know more about it and why this might be the case. Please substantiate your statements with facts.. not your keyboard opinions. Thanks

Oh boy, this is going to be interesting. for me I don't believe there is a different tune for both 50 & 100 if your tune is correct at 50 meaning it can shoot itty bitty groups.

Using the same verbiage of the barrel doesn't know if it is a CF or RF round being shot same goes for distance. how does the barrel knows what distance you are shooting at!

Only ammo will dictate how it will shoot at 100.
looking at tunnel test printouts it will show good at 50m will be good at 100. meaning a lot that does 16mm+ at 50m will certainly not do under 25mm at 100m test reports show this to be true.

Lee

 

[jsof]

I also hope that a lot of ideas get kicked around in this thread.
I have been using a tuner on a couple of 22s for several years now and am convinced of their having a positive effect on accuracy, but I have read a number of theories on how they accomplish this. I do think that if the theory that they cause the bullet to leave the barrel at the same point in its vibration is true, and if you can get that to be either the highest or lowest point in the vibration cycle, there should be a setting, or settings, that is best for 50 and 100 yards.
I also feel that this setting can be affected by factors such as temperature changes because anything that changes the stiffness of the barrel should change the vibrations amplitude or frequency and change point at which the bullet leaves the muzzle.
Educate me.

 

[dubhane]

Question.

If in a tuned barrel the slower rounds leave the muzzle at a higher trajectory than the faster rounds in order for them to have the same poi at 50 yards, then doesn’t the slower rounds trajectory continue to drop below the faster rounds trajectory over distance?

 

[CharlieNC]

Bullets moving at different velocities will not exit the muzzle at the same time, but if they could leave when the muzzle is "stopped" at the top or bottom of the vibration, then those velocity differences would impact at different vertical due to ballistics. I think Kolbe coined the term positive compensation, and with an instrumented barrel showed a tuner changes the exit time such that faster bullets exit earlier when the barrel is pointed at a lower angle, and slower bullets exit later when the barrel is further on the upswing of harmonic movement. In this case the harmonic effect offsets the ballistic effect to reduce the effect of velocity; the challenge is to find the proper tuner weight and adjustment to achieve the exact offset.

But using a ballistic calculator, we know the effect of velocity differences on drop depends on the distance., Meaninging the necessary harmonic offset from the tuner is also different based on distance. But there are too many variables to simply calculate this, except to know it is not exactly the same and a good tune is still better than no tune across distances.

 

[USMCDOC]

Oh boy, this is going to be interesting. for me I don't believe there is a different tune for both 50 & 100 if your tune is correct at 50 meaning it can shoot itty bitty groups.

Using the same verbiage of the barrel doesn't know if it is a CF or RF round being shot same goes for distance. how does the barrel knows what distance you are shooting at!

Only ammo will dictate how it will shoot at 100.
looking at tunnel test printouts it will show good at 50m will be good at 100. meaning a lot that does 16mm+ at 50m will certainly not do under 25mm at 100m test reports show this to be true.

Lee

Yes, but I am going by what John Whidden professed about his experiences with testing in their tunnel. And wondering if it’s a thing that can be achieved in a test tunnel, or can it be repeated in the open environment.

 

[USMCDOC]

Bullets moving at different velocities will not exit the muzzle at the same time, but if they could leave when the muzzle is "stopped" at the top or bottom of the vibration, then those velocity differences would impact at different vertical due to ballistics. I think Kolbe coined the term positive compensation, and with an instrumented barrel showed a tuner changes the exit time such that faster bullets exit earlier when the barrel is pointed at a lower angle, and slower bullets exit later when the barrel is further on the upswing of harmonic movement. In this case the harmonic effect offsets the ballistic effect to reduce the effect of velocity; the challenge is to find the proper tuner weight and adjustment to achieve the exact offset.

But using a ballistic calculator, we know the effect of velocity differences on drop depends on the distance., Meaninging the necessary harmonic offset from the tuner is also different based on distance. But there are too many variables to simply calculate this, except to know it is not exactly the same and a good tune is still better than no tune across distances.

Yes agree that a good tune starting out is paramount. If we ever get some calm conditions, I wanna try a experiment with it

 

[whiddengunworks]

I'm really interested in this, too, but haven't had a chance to test this again and see if it's repeatable. I hope to have some time and shoot the entire test over and see what happens.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Yes, but I am going by what John Whidden professed about his experiences with testing in their tunnel. And wondering if it’s a thing that can be achieved in a test tunnel, or can it be repeated in the open environment.

Remember that lot of CX you sold me a few years ago here is 50 shots at 100 yds. not sure which one of the 3 AOL 74,75, 76 was used. a quarter is under an inch. only reason there are strays is the conditions were excellent but still outside not in a tunnel. that is the one thing that you cannot really know if whatever tuner adjustments you make is really effective shooting outdoors.
same tuner setting for the last 8- years.
Lapua test results in 2019, 50 & 100m the noted measurement was the first 4 shots which were nearly one hole at 50m so 11mm at 50m and 20.88mm at 100 and it can shoot 50 shots at 100 yds. with a totally different first time shot lot and get those results tells me if tuned at 50 it will shoot at 100 without adjustments as long as the ammo can perform. also, how it was tested in the tunnel is the same way I shoot it off the bench Pappas rest and the same way the 50-shot group was shot.

Lee

 

[BowChamp]

Don't have anything to add.........just here for the information that might be shared.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Yes agree that a good tune starting out is paramount. If we ever get some calm conditions, I wanna try a experiment with it

I know you shoot at 100 a lot do you make adjustments?

Lee

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Don't have anything to add.........just here for the information that might be shared.

I bet if you shoot your rifle at 100 it will shoot predictable going by what it can do at 50. only conditions would have the biggest impact on results.

Lee

 

[USMCDOC]

I know you shoot at 100 a lot do you make adjustments?

Lee

Yes I do, but no I have not, just accepted what was at hand. My curiosity is that any improvements that could be achieved, then it is worth exploring

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Yes I do, but no I have not, just accepted what was at hand. My curiosity is that any improvements that could be achieved, then it is worth exploring

Of course, anything to improve is always good. IME, it seems ammo is the most contributing factor when going from 50 to 100.
but all of my match 100-yard shooting was for score one shot at one bull. not sure if it makes a difference.

Lee

 

[PNW Skipper]

We shoot a monthly 50/100 yard Dewar match on a windy range in Eastern WA. The record score is 400-35X. The typical winning score is 398/399-28/30X unless the wind is way up. 50 Yards is usually cleaned by at least 3 competitors in each match, with wind calls and X count at 100 yards determining the winner. There is a range of rifles competing including tuner equipped Stiller, Turbo, Falcon, Anschutz, Walther, Suhl & Vudoo action rifles. In five years shooting this match I have never observed a single shooter adjust a tuner going from the 50 Yard target to the 100 Yard target. Just saying!

 

[Tim Slater]

I think Kolbe coined the term positive compensation...

As an historical aside, no he didn't. He may have been the first to apply to .22RF, but compensation has been used in Britain to describe the phenomenom for decades, largely in relation to service Lee-Enfields. I believe it goes back to the 1929 Textbook of Small Arms at least.

 

[USMCDOC]

Of course, anything to improve is always good. IME, it seems ammo is the most contributing factor when going from 50 to 100.
but all of my match 100-yard shooting was for score one shot at one bull. not sure if it makes a difference.

Lee

When i was at the Test Center.. when Lucus was doing it there in Ohio. He made the statement that some lots shoot better at 100 than others. What he was referring to was, that there are many lots that shoot excellent, to same at 50.. but shoot differently at 100. So as to what John is saying from his observations, it may be that changing the tune at 100 might help those lots shoot better at 100..
And as you say.. you shoot some score at 100.. but well as.. most RF BR guys.. only shoot at 50 and are not concerned about how it shoots at 100 or never do shoot at 100. I wonder how many folks have had lots like what Lucus is referring to.. Excellent at 50 but so so at 100.

 

[USMCDOC]

We shoot a monthly 50/100 yard Dewar match on a windy range in Eastern WA. The record score is 400-35X. The typical winning score is 398/399-28/30X unless the wind is way up. 50 Yards is usually cleaned by at least 3 competitors in each match, with wind calls and X count at 100 yards determining the winner. There is a range of rifles competing including tuner equipped Stiller, Turbo, Falcon, Anschutz, Walther, Suhl & Vudoo action rifles. In five years shooting this match I have never observed a single shooter adjust a tuner going from the 50 Yard target to the 100 Yard target. Just saying!

of course you've not.. prob cuz this subject was never brought up.. and no one ever tried it.. just a thought

 

[grauhanen]

It may be useful to keep in mind that at both 50 and 100, with a tuner or not, the ammo itself is a variable. Some lots that shoot well at 50 may experience a greater dispersion rate than others as they go further down range. It has nothing to do with what brand or variety of ammo it is.

In other words, with or without a tuner, some lots will do better than others as distance increases -- even when they shoot equally well at 50.

And some rifle bores are better with increasing distance than others.