getting neck runout on brass after redding type s die

[Tesoro]

I just prepped 45 6.5mc hornady cases that were shot 3x then annealed.
I neck sized them in my redding die to 3/4 the way down the neck. Runout was zilch no more than .001. The neck thicknesses were within .0005. I then had to run them thru the body die as they needed it being .003 too fat and a bit too long in headspace. After doing that 8 of the cases developed runout to .003-4. I ran those thru the redding neck die again but that didnt help. I then ran them thru a forster f/l competition die with expander ball. That fixed them and all were back to max .001 runout.

I am not sure why that 8 got deformed. 'They say' to neck size and then body size but it seems to me that it would be better to do the heavy duty work first and then do the light work on the necks.

Starting to wonder why I just dont use a f/l bushing die all the time or that forester one as it squeezes the necks to the same dia as the bushing I use anyhow.

 

[L W P]

defintely my plan on the taking neck down no more than i have to. thinking of taking down i 2 steps, will experiment first with just one .337.

i do use a dedicated decapping die and i let the shell holder float and i definetly don't lock down my sizing bushing. i removed the decapping/ball mechinism in the die.

i was toying with the idea of floating an o-ring under the locking nut to allow movement but still keep it pushed up against the threads. has anyone done that, i saw that link for the lee locking nuts.

I think that a .337" bushing may be too large to give you any tension on the bullet after resizing. At least with my experience. I've never gone larger than .336" and even then that size wasn't enough to hold the bullet in all of the cases. Also switching from one brand of brass to another ( Lapua, IMI, FC ) you will notice that you might want to change the dia of the bushing accordingly for each brand.Because different brands have different case thickness. Also I'm not sure if you reload for gas gun's too, but you'll need more bullet tension for that animal. Or possibly even a tapper crimp die. You can prove it by putting a loaded round in the mag and releasing the bolt letting the bolt chamber the round.Then measuring the length of the round to see if it changed from the kinetic energy of the bolt slamming the round forwards and suddenly stopping. Do this test on several different rounds that you have loaded. NOTE!!! Please do this testing OUTSIDE pointing the rifle in a SAFE direction !!! In case of a slam fire.

 

[L W P]

I just prepped 45 6.5mc hornady cases that were shot 3x then annealed.
I neck sized them in my redding die to 3/4 the way down the neck. Runout was zilch no more than .001. The neck thicknesses were within .0005. I then had to run them thru the body die as they needed it being .003 too fat and a bit too long in headspace. After doing that 8 of the cases developed runout to .003-4. I ran those thru the redding neck die again but that didnt help. I then ran them thru a forster f/l competition die with expander ball. That fixed them and all were back to max .001 runout.

I am not sure why that 8 got deformed. 'They say' to neck size and then body size but it seems to me that it would be better to do the heavy duty work first and then do the light work on the necks.

Starting to wonder why I just dont use a f/l bushing die all the time or that forester one as it squeezes the necks to the same dia as the bushing I use anyhow.

Exactly!! Why go thru all kinds of steps when one step does everything! That's my thinking too. If you have a F/L bushing die using the expander ball with the appropriate bushing dia. and setting the shoulder back .0015" you will have brass that is resized consistently every time. IMO

 

[L W P]

I know that it's a dead horse but here goes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLG2kSrD40g
STOP NECK SIZING YOUR BRASS!!!!

 

[Rhed]

Annealing helps a lot.

 

[Tesoro]

I know that it's a dead horse but here goes.
STOP NECK SIZING YOUR BRASS!!!!

I am considering replacing my 6.5cm neck die with a f/l neck bushing die.

I will make some perfectly concentric ammo with my neck only redding but then I will get some in the same fireformed batch that are off by 3-4 tho. Maybe 4 out of 50. I want to figure out why this happens on casings that all had minimal neck runout after sizing but before seating.

Could it be there is inconsistency in the case body diameter that somehow misaligns the bullet? The one thing I havent done is check body diameter variance after fire forming.
All the neck thicknesses are within spec of .0005 +/- so there isnt a lump on the inside to skew the bullet. I dont lube my necks but dont see this causing the occasional excess runout. I chamfer evenly. I use a coax. Not sure what else to do or not to do!

 

[L W P]

I've seen that also, and have noticed that after X3 firing washing, annealing, F/L sizing and then firing again my resizing run-out gets better as I go. Maybe the brass is just settling in, not sure. My run-out started with .0005"-.003" and is now after a few firings and resizing (etc.) .0000"-.0015" on 200 pieces.

 

[rockwind1]

tesero, that is currently the exact same problem i am having and i use a full length neck bushing die (redding) i've tried a lot of stuff and it is so random i can't figure it out. the only i have not tried yet is necking down incrementally as that size die hasn't arrived. i am going from .346 down to .338 (i will probaby go even smaller cause that is pretty light neck tension)

i get about 60%-65% good ones but then these others come out for no apparent reasons. i would be fine if there was some consistent results bad or good, but total ramdomness is driving me crazy.

 

[fatelvis]

For those of you looking to buy a bushing neck sizer, look at getting a die for a short, squatty cartridge, such as 7mm BR. It will work to neck size all other cartridges, without buying separate dies. After all, it acts as just a "bushing holder".

 

[Tesoro]

tesero, that is currently the exact same problem i am having and i use a full length neck bushing die (redding) i've tried a lot of stuff and it is so random i can't figure it out. the only i have not tried yet is necking down incrementally as that size die hasn't arrived. i am going from .346 down to .338 (i will probaby go even smaller cause that is pretty light neck tension)

i get about 60%-65% good ones but then these others come out for no apparent reasons. i would be fine if there was some consistent results bad or good, but total ramdomness is driving me crazy.

I can tell you from my limited experience that you need to neck down in as many intervals as you can stand or you will get problems.

 

[Tesoro]

I've seen that also, and have noticed that after X3 firing washing, annealing, F/L sizing and then firing again my resizing run-out gets better as I go. Maybe the brass is just settling in, not sure. My run-out started with .0005"-.003" and is now after a few firings and resizing (etc.) .0000"-.0015" on 200 pieces.

If you can get up to .0015 runout consistently then I would say you are doing real well. A Redding tech told me not to worry unless its over .003 ( I think it was .003 maybe more but I remember it surprised me). It sort of like guys that weigh to the kernel which is overkill.

One thing I always do is chamfer even if I dont trim. not sure why but if it dosent need it I just do a light twist to double check and look at my necks. I have noticed I can easily feel the difference in how the chamfer blade cuts the brass from annealed to non annealed. the annealed feels nice! I also noticed that after I anneal a batch and chamfer I will get an occasional one that feels 'hard' to cut as if it didnt take the annealing well. I am wondering if this could be a contributing cause for runout. The same thing happens on the feel when seating. Every now and then I will get one that feels a tad harder to seat. probably the same hard brass casing. Maybe the extra pressure required to expand the neck can throw it out of wack. I use a light tension about 1-2 tho max. My case necks arent thick either .0135 so I wont take much to tweak them. I am not sure if lube would help but probably will more than not. I might also try a little imperial on my fingers and rub the bullet before placing on the neck to seat. I have been lazy about doing that.

 

[Barlow]

I fixed the bushing die runout problem a long time ago by going to a Forster FL standard die, custom neck honed. Works for me. Barlow

 

[L W P]

I am not sure if lube would help but probably will more than not. I might also try a little imperial on my fingers and rub the bullet before placing on the neck to seat. I have been lazy about doing that.

After I wash and anneal the inside necks are so clean that I have to dry lube them before I resize with Imperial Dry Neck Lube Convenience Pak .

 

[L W P]

Besides the dry lube on the necks I use Imperial Case Sizing Wax 2 oz on the shoulders and body. Leaving the dry inside the necks for a smooth seat. But I do wipe off the out side of the cases with a paper towel before that.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Besides the dry lube on the necks I use Imperial Case Sizing Wax 2 oz on the shoulders and body. Leaving the dry inside the necks for a smooth seat. But I do wipe off the out side of the cases with a paper towel before that.

Dont put lube on the necks or shoulders before sizing- only the body. You cant get any consistency in sizing if lube gets up there

 

[Tesoro]

All the good input on this thread got me to thinking so I ran a test using Hornady factory ammo casings that were fired 1x in my rifle.

I set up 1) Forster competition f/l std neck die w/expander ball 2) Redding neck bushing and then body die 3) Redding neck bushing only.

I did a batch of 8 casings for each run. I would have done more but the measurements and casings were so consistent that didnt see the need to continue.

I did a .002 bump and the diameter by shoulder changed -.004 with both f/l and body die. The middle and the base areas changed -.001

The necks grew .004 with the f/l expander ball and .002 with the body and .001-.0015 with the bushing only.

Neck runout was max .001 with the f/l and body/neck combo but closer on avg to .001 for both of them. Runout on the neck bushing was noticeably closer to .0005 most of the time but not over .001. I would attribute the better runouts by the neck bushing because the neck thickness variance of .0005 was pushed to the inside. Bottom line is bushing or no bushing produced equally minimal runout.

Obviously just using the neck bushing process eliminates some steps, hassle and grunt force. It probably will give one another shooting before needing to trim/chamfer/deburr.

Obviously after 4 or 5 firings doing neck only one will have to resize with the body die but thats still better than doing it each time as easier on the brass.

I think in my situation, the occasional wild runouts either came from either no lube on bullet for seating in polished and annealed casings or not paying attention to the insertion/extraction pressure on the neck bushing.

The only thing I didnt do was test bullet runout to match the neck runout as didnt want to waste 24 expensive bullets. Using the expander ball will make the inside throat smooth so by logic the bullet should seat straighter down the tube than with uneven inside neck formed with the bushing. But I cant imagine .0005 variance on the inside translating to much extra bullet runout. If end result stays within .001-.0015 then I am sure that is plenty good for most of us.

I think the bottom line is all the methods get the job done properly when performed correctly but neck sizing alone might be more efficient on time and case life.

 

[rockwind1]

Well Tesoro. Your test is sure different than mine.

Dusty. I have been applying unique lube all over case and neck. I have noticed it is the bottom of the case that is tightest or stickiest. I will experiment with no lube on neck and shoulder. Despite Redding saying to use lube on the necks

I am still flummoxed with my seemingly random results despite being consistent with my actions.

What is this about insertion and extraction pressure. I occasyget one that is hard to extract but I have been checking each one for concentricity before and after and there is no real pattern.

 

[Tesoro]

jstnhnt247 told you what your prob is. read it again. You are pissin in the wind trying anything more until you get the right set of bushings so you can size down in stages and not let your expander ball work against the bushing. You dont even need an expander ball to neck size your brass and make it load ready! I dont use one with the bushing method as it stretches the neck 2x as much as I showed in my experiment. it would be best to get rid of the damm thing as thats what is causing half the probs and the other half is your improper bushing use.

But to ans your question if you try to neck down too much at once some will take it and others will get deformed from the excess pressure. Its the brass as some will be weaker than others.

When I first started with bushings I ran into the same issues with my 20P and got all confused and frustrated the first time. I got rid of my expander ball and replaced it with a threaded sleeve from redding to hold the decap pin and then it all made sense.

Your first run needs to be to half size your neck - no more than .004 smaller like 247 said. When you do this you can decap without an expander ball or keep the ball in place if it is smaller than your bushing.

Then you prep your case and then give it another final die run with a bushing that will take your neck down to the final size you need to get your neck tension, but again with no expander ball bigger than your bushing. the final bushing size = the loaded od neck size minus the desired neck tension.

Dont even think about runout until you get this process down on some test rounds. Go from start to finish and load some bullets less primer n powder and check the tension. Then it will all come together and later go to step #2 which is fine tuning for runout.

ps; when you order the correct bushings get a can of imperial neck lube and then you can lose the gloves and the oily gunk in your dies! Bushings dont like oil but you need to use lube every time but not too much. The bottom on the case has the least taper so it will have the tightest fit.

 

[Bart B.]

With Accuracy One's design having the case body near its shoulder resting on the front bearings, for every .001" out of round the case is there, that will add near .002" to the dial indicator reading near the bullet tip.

Their design is the same as what I used decades ago. It did the same thing. Changed its front reference to a hole to replicate the shoulder in a chamber and case body out of round issues vanished.

308 Win cases center in chamber shoulders when fired. Only their pressure ring touches the chamber body at its back end. If the case neck is centered straight on the case shoulder, the bullet in it will also be centered in the chamber throat. Clearance around the case body near the shoulder can vary without ill effects.

 

[muleman69]

i have once fired (in my chamber) federal fgmm match brass, cleaned.. i set up my redding type s FL die (it has the floating neck bushing in it, size 332) anyway, i have a decent accuracy one concentricity guage, i check the neck before i run it in the die and the neck usually has from a little bit less than .001 to .0015ish. but after i run them thru, i check the neck and it is well over .002, sometimes hitting .003 or .0035)

i am lubing the necks with unique, and i am using Tit bushings

the necks were trimmed with a giraud trimmer so they look squared and chameferred

now for this particlur 308, this is probably not a big deal BUT i want to know why it is doing it and how i can fix it cause i will be loading for a gun i want to be very dialed in after this one.

am i being too picky on the neck runout,,, i just don't see why it get's worse after sizing.

when i set up the die in my redding t-7, i used a die from a tap and die set, which is very "square" and i used it to square up the ram with the redding die by squishing it in between them , then i tightened up the locking ring to where i wanted it for bumping.

i have experimented with how loose the bushing die is, i started by just lightly tightening it down (that was a disaster with like .010 run) so then i loosened it up in 1/16th turn increments with no effect other than what i have mentioned. i did this becasue of a thread i read on here. here is a video if it helps. would appreciate any help.
also, i am not keeping the expander ball in there, with the 332 bushing, i am only getting about .001 of neck tension so i didn't want it to expand it out.

before i size the neck down, it is .346, after i size it with the 332 bushing, it is .330, when i put the bullit in it is .338

if i install the expander, it makes the neck .338 so i will have no neck tension, same with my expanding mandrell .30 cal from 21st century, it also expanded neck out to .338 so if i use either of those, i have zero neck tension. (which is another question in itself? and i may ask on another thread)

the brass is not necked down. the only thing i can think is that a thinner weaker section of the brass is pushing it off to one side,,,, but then why did it fireform so much nicer, concentricity wise.

ok, i guess i just want to know if there is a way to fix it, or does it need to be fixed for my 1/2-1/4 moa goal? i just don't want to work my way thru 200 loaded rounds only to find out how to fix it.

update: so went and flipped the neck bushing over and it works way better now. weird. i sort of cleaned it out (the hole from the top) a little.

I have the very same press and dies as you have and have had the same exact problems. What has been working for me is not to have die snug in press ,leave a bit loose but not to much, remove shell holder clip and replace with O ring( o ring is just so you are not chasing shell holder all over the floor) Next I will remove expander ball then run brass in die slow in slow out. Next step is run them over Sinclair mandrel of proper size, this seems to help a lot with alignment and to push brass to out side .Myself I like about .001 neck tension on everything but my hunting rounds. Be sure and keep up with the annealing. Have fun and good luck