German Salazar: Preparing brass for Neck Turning??

[tristantrc]

In preparation for neck turning, German Salazar recommends preparing your brass by:

(abbreviated version)
1. FL resizing with a "non-bushing" die such as Hornady's New Dimension.
2. Trim to uniform length
3. Expand necks
4. Turn necks

(http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2009/12/reloading-neck-turning.html)

So my question is:
AFTER turning your necks, do you then GO BACK and FL & Neck resize again, except this time using your regular Redding Competition Bushing Dies so that both the shoulder is bumped and your neck tension is set properly? And if so, wouldn't it then follow that you need to also re-trim and square your necks again?

 

[necchi]

Maybe, it depends on the size of the mandrel of your turning tools.

I only outside turn if a case shows unacceptable runout, So I size after also then check for runout again.
(note these are for non-BR factory guns)

 

[BoydAllen]

It all depends on whether you need to increase your neck tension over what your expanding mandrel gives you. If you do resize, I see no need to bump, since I would have handled that in the one piece die sizing, and there should be no need to trim, chamfer or debur again either. Realistically, if the chamber requires turning necks, you would only touch the shoulder slightly when sizing with the one piece die, since brass would have to be fired a couple of times with a stout load to need bumping, and new brass is almost never a close fit. I always bump from the maximum that a particular barrel and action combination will give me, and try to keep a reference case to check against. If the barrel is new, given that I always load at the range for my most commonly shot rifle, a 6PPC. I will usually take an old case check it for size, and size it as much as is needed for an smooth fit, and then fire it a couple of times with a hot load, only sizing the neck enough to hold the bullet. After its head to datum line length stops increasing, usually after two or three firings, I use that case to compare to when setting my FL die for the brass that I will be using to break in the barrel, and do my load development.

 

[amlevin]

Let's put another question into the mix. If one doesn't need to turn necks to make the case fit the chamber, what about new brass?

Use the above sequence on new brass or wait until it's been fired once or more?

 

[jonbearman]

I do my usual prep on new cases like the primer pockets,check to see if the length's are under sammi max ,then full length size and trim to just square the case,deburr flash hole etc. I then load and fire 2 times to make sure the case's are formed.Then I check the necks for thickness andrunout.I skim cut the necks only if they really need it in a no turn neck chamber.

 

[BoydAllen]

If the chamber does not require turning necks, I don't, but if I did, I would probably take into consideration the barrel life issues inherent in firing each case twice before turning. A friend, who was a very good benchrest shooter, would run his expanded .220 Russian cases in and out of a one piece 6PPC die a few times, with the expander in place (using turning lube inside the necks, I am sure) to even out the necks, before turning them...by hand. While I wouldn't go so far as to say that that is why he shot so well, it must not have hurt him any.

 

[LCazador]

German is correct . I've been doing tight necks , wild cats , etc. for years . Always start with new brass if possible and anneal if necessary , full lenght size or shoulder bump , trim to length , expand the necks , and then resize the necks for proper grip on the bullets . Shoot and fireform one or two times and then use a shoulder bump or neck sizer bushing die . Each operation has a definative function ! The full lenght or shoulder bump and the trim to length , sets the neck turning cut into shoulder to the same depth on every cut . It you're not turning necks , the procedure is full length size or bump , trim , and fireform . You must start with consistant brass dimensions to achive consistant fireformed dimensions . Because of brass spingback it can't be achvied backyards ! You expand the neck to get a tighter fit on the neck turning mandrel . This tight fit on the mandrel assures that the neck turning cutter makes a smooth and consistant cut to keep dimensions tight . A loose fit can result in inconsistant neck thickness variations . This is what you are trying to eliminate by neck turning !

 

[spclark]

I've found a light cut on new brass to be a helpful 1st step (after first full-length sizing & running necks over a caliber-specific neck mandrel) then trim & de-burr before 1st firing. Then anneal neck and shoulder, size once more then turn necks to desired neck wall thickness after once again passing them over an expander mandrel. Trim to length may be necessary again depending on brand of brass, cartridge size & shape & chamber quality.

New brass needs at least one firing before final turning so as to make it conform most closely to a given chamber's dimensions. Doing a light cut on new brass before firing seems to help; I struggled with non-concentric necks for several years until figuring this out in practice.

 

[LCazador]

I've found a light cut on new brass to be a helpful 1st step (after first full-length sizing & running necks over a caliber-specific neck mandrel) then trim & de-burr before 1st firing. Then anneal neck and shoulder, size once more then turn necks to desired neck wall thickness after once again passing them over an expander mandrel. Trim to length may be necessary again depending on brand of brass, cartridge size & shape & chamber quality.

New brass needs at least one firing before final turning so as to make it conform most closely to a given chamber's dimensions. Doing a light cut on new brass before firing seems to help; I struggled with non-concentric necks for several years until figuring this out in practice.

This is probably true for a factory or no turn chamber but it isn't so for a specific chamber size . I turn one or two thousands at a time to get to minimum chamber dimension . Understand that if you have a . 262" chamber you must be at least .001" under that dimension before fireforming otherwise you're back to that brass spring back thing !! You must have enough clearance prior to fireforming to freely form that brass . Too tight and you'll overstretch the brass in just one fireform , and it will not springback , believe me I've thrown away enough cases to know .

 

[FroggyOne2]

The only reason that I turn necks is because I feel that it does help reduce verticale dispersion.

 

[DanConzo]

I just don't understand a person full length resizing a new case w/ a regular fl die especially if they are using the expander ball to prepare the case to neck turn, when you can use the fl bushing die w/o bushing or fl body die to straighten the case body out then use a Lee Collet Die or a mandrel on your expander to match up w/ your neck turner mandrel. In my experience I end up w/ straighter cases doing the later. Some sort of mandrel has to be run into neck anyway to take out dents whether in the press or by hand. Of course you have to chamfer the mouth also. I suppose if the neck of the fl die is lapped out and the exp ball only has to open it back up .001" or less it would be ok too. If a person had to fireform to achieve the final form of the case that would explain it, because surely after fireforming it would also be straightened out also. Bushing dies, lapped out neck area dies and the Collet die are utilized to do away w/ the exp ball. Just my thoughts and opinion.

 

[amlevin]

I just don't understand a person full length resizing a new case w/ a regular fl die especially if they are using the expander ball to prepare the case to neck turn, when you can use the fl bushing die w/o bushing or fl body die to straighten the case body out then use a Lee Collet Die or a mandrel on your expander to match up w/ your neck turner mandrel. In my experience I end up w/ straighter cases doing the later. Some sort of mandrel has to be run into neck anyway to take out dents whether in the press or by hand. Of course you have to chamfer the mouth also. I suppose if the neck of the fl die is lapped out and the exp ball only has to open it back up .001" or less it would be ok too. If a person had to fireform to achieve the final form of the case that would explain it, because surely after fireforming it would also be straightened out also. Bushing dies, lapped out neck area dies and the Collet die are utilized to do away w/ the exp ball. Just my thoughts and opinion.

When I open a new package of brass and check it with either a headspace meauring tool or case gauge, I find lots of variation in this dimension. Not so much it falls out of "spec" but certainly a variation. Fire forming not only tends to straighten the case, does what a sizing die doesn't. It lengthens those cases where the "headspace measurement" is short. Also allows one to trim that first "flow" of brass into the neck from the shoulder area.

 

[TimP]

Those of you that use a standard FL die on new brass prior to trimming/neck turning are you using the standard expander button then the expander mandrel prior to neck turning. Or just eliminating the standard expander button. Do you have the neck of the standard FL die honed to minimize the amount the neck OD/ID is reduced. What I was thinking is to buy a Forster FL die have the neck honed use my carbite turning arbor (.001 smaller than the expander mandrel) to uniform the necks. Then trim. After all cases have been trimmed to a uniform length use the expander mandrel to open the necks to fit the carbite arbor. Expand one case turn, expand one case turn etc.
My thinking is to minimize the amount I am working the neck of the new brass.

Opinions Appreciated.

 

[Martin52]

1) ...are you using the standard expander button then the expander mandrel prior to neck turning. Or just eliminating the standard expander button.

2) Do you have the neck of the standard FL die honed to minimize the amount the neck OD/ID is reduced.

Opinions Appreciated.

1) I remove the expander button and rely on the neck expander mandrel - in my case I use a K&M expander mandrel before neck turning.

2) Forster honed the neck of one of their FLS dies at my request to 0.3345 (I use .308 Lapua brass). In my view this is a great "value for money" option compared to some of the more costly custom dies and works fine for me, run out is generally <1 thou'. However, if you go this route you need to first determine the case neck thickness you require after neck turning, and you need to know your chamber neck diameter in order to know the dimension you want the die neck honed to suit your specific requirements.

Martin

 

[lrgoodger]

Excellent thread!

I have been neck turning for a couple of years since I get my reamers with slightly tight necks and require a clean up neck turn. The points raised in this thread made me realize that I am going to have to do the neck turning in two steps from now on (boo hoo!). They have to be turned enough to allow them to go into the tight neck chamber before they can even BE fireformed and as LCazador said, they have to have enough clearance to allow for proper spring-back. That is where I have been stopping in the past, and I have won my share of matches doing it that way. However, it makes perfect sense that I would get more consistent necks if they were turned again AFTER fireforming, as spclark describes. This may help with the occasional group spoiling flyers I have been getting. Thanks for such clear and concise explanations, guys!

 

[bigedp51]

I hope you forum members understand that some people are unable to turn their necks no matter what German Salazar says.

 

[amlevin]

I hope you forum members understand that some people are unable to turn their necks no matter what German Salazar says.

I can relate. I installed a new kitchen sink yesterday. This morning I can hardly turn my neck

 

[aussiesean]

I have found a web archive that has cached all the articles written by Germán A. Salazar on his blog The Rifleman’s Journal. Not sure how long it will exist so worth saving each article as a .pdf file for future reference. Such a rich source of information should be preserved by every shooter. Obviously, the content is Germán’s personal property so out of respect for the man you should not reproduce any of it.

2009 https://web.archive.org/web/2015032...al.blogspot.com/2009/08/primers-misfires.html
2010 https://web.archive.org/web/2015031...om/2010/06/reloading-partial-neck-sizing.html
2011 https://web.archive.org/web/2015031.../cartridges-sibling-rivalry-308-vs-30-06.html
2012 https://web.archive.org/web/2015030.../cartridges-accuracy-secrets-of-30-06_10.html

Once viewing an article the menu on the right of the page works to access the other months and content within that year. They do not work for other years.

To save an article as a .pdf file on your hard drive first close the timeline banner at the top of the article (otherwise it repeats itself on each pdf page and blocks out a lot of the content). Then press Ctrl+P to open your printer window. From the drop-down printer selection menu select .pdf file. You only need to do this the first time then it will default to .pdf the next time you pull up the print window. Then click save and the rest is self-explanatory.

Thanks Germán for doing our sport such a great service and may the next chapter of your life bring you much joy. I hope your shoulder is enjoying the rest.