GAWD DANG RUNOUT! is it my redding dies?
- Thread starter rockwind1
- Start date
josebd
Silver $$ Contributor
I use nothing but foster fl sizing die (No bushing),micrometer seater dies.
I use oring under fl sizing die,when I use the seater, I screw the die down per the instructions and leave it loose,then when I seat the first bullet,with the ram all the way up,then I tighten the die.
Loaded up some .308 nosler brass,hornady 168 amax,with less than .001 after resizing on the neck,then measuring seated bullet,the worse was .0025,with a bunch less than .001
I use oring under fl sizing die,when I use the seater, I screw the die down per the instructions and leave it loose,then when I seat the first bullet,with the ram all the way up,then I tighten the die.
Loaded up some .308 nosler brass,hornady 168 amax,with less than .001 after resizing on the neck,then measuring seated bullet,the worse was .0025,with a bunch less than .001
I was going to suggest that, basically as Thud posted, very Poor design, although alot of reloaders will say that the dies are mainly where the accuracy comes from, i watch some videos on shooters reloading, i can literally see the turret move up, sorry to say thats a NO NO. I can keep within .001 and mostly .0005 runout with a single stage press, and i only use a lightweight single stage press dedicated for seating only, i use a RCBS Partner or i also use a old Lee aluminum O press, that turret press in my view would be a better at a pistol press, i personally think the lee turret press is a better design the turret goes straight up to remove head play when loading. and forgot to mention i do use home built mandrels for the final desired neck tension.
chet
try this costs nothing and works for me. put the case in the shell holder insert bullet and raise the ram and gently touch the seater with the bullet. turn the case and touch seater again then do it a third time. i think this gets the bullet started straight into the case. if you start the bullet into the case very far and it is not straight turning will not straighten it out. my k-hornet seater is a wilson and i spin the seater stem before seating the bullet and get near zero run out. i also use redding comp seaters . not fast but they come out straight.
muleman69
USMC -1st marine Div. RVN
Don't give up on your T7 press it will turn out concentric rounds with no problems. I also have had hair pulling experiences with Redding dies through the years. Here is what works for me, I size with a Hornady Match (they are cheap) FL die with expander removed then run it over a Sinclair mandrel (this is on turned brass). I loaded 19 rounds of 300WM brass tonight with all being .0015 or less. Majority came in around .001. I have four presses on my bench and my go to is the T7. my .02
hi, i actually haven't gotten to the bullet seating part, i am still figuring out how to get the necks concentric first. i guess i figure if the necks have no run out (which i still haven't made happen yet) then if i still get concentricity issues, it is the seating die,,, but for right now all evidence points to the bushing being the main culprit
yes, i have been checking the runout on the sized necks and that is where all the run out is. i resized 5 cartridges without the bushing in the die and it did n't change the runout. as soon as i put in the bushing, with or without the expander ball, i get approx 80% of the cases with runout of .003 or more.
well,,, if this was "ask the audience" on how to be a millionaire, it sure looks likes the forster dies are the way to go.
Hi Rockwind, your dilemma is pretty simple and you have answered your own question...
1. Your fired brass has zero runout and your sized brass has significantly more runout. Therefore, either your die or your press or both are adding runout to fired brass that starts with perfect dimensions.
2. You also mention you tried two different presses and floated the dies with no improvement....problem is likely the die.
3. The one thing I don't see you trying is a different die. In particular, you should try a non-bushing die. I suspect if you do so with a good straight die, the runout will improve significantly.
I have used non-bushing dies for quite a few years for exactly the reason you describe. Dies should not add to or increase runout, but F/L bushing dies seem to do this. In many cases, I think the problem is the bushing and not the die. In any case, switching to non-bushing dies reduces the runout to next to nothing if you have good dies.
The other thing to remember is the more you size your case, the more you are likely to create runout. If it comes out of the chamber perfect, the less you mess with it the better it will stay that way. For example, sizing the neck too much will induce runout. What is too much....your concentrity gauge will tell you.
PS. I use custom F/L non-bushing sizing dies and Redding Seaters. Runout at the bullet is zero on about half the cases and .001 or less on the rest. Good dies make the difference.
one reason i haven't tried a different die is that this particular caliber is a gap 4s 6.5SAUM. The only dies available without going custom is reddding. since i just started reloading, i am investigating operator error first (despite my title sort of blaming the redding dies)
i was hoping someone would say "did you take the upc sticker out of the inside of the neck bushing" or maybe "turn the press so it faces due magnetic north".
so, my other problem is i don't even have a neck die only so even if i wanted to leave the body alone and just try the neck, i couldn't. i am going post my experiements today in a another reply.
it defintely seems to be the neck bushings causing problems from what i can see. so, yes, i should order some custom dies which will take some time i am sure. sigh. so much for getting load developement done in time for hunting season.
my fired brass measure .295 at the neck od. i tried a .291, .290. and .289 bushing, doesn't seem like a big jump. sigh.
lissen to Scott Harris
LISSEN to Scott Harris!
The ANSWER is in his last sentence...... read it 19 times.
The ANSWER is fitted dies.
period
I DID,,,I DID I SWEAR. i just have to order some, kept thinking it was me.
I don't have a runout gauge but on Saturday at our local shoot a mate walked up with his 21st century gage and asked if he could test my ammo I agreed with a gulp thinking to myself I'm been called out as my gage is a mirror.
Well he tested random rounds I did not look he said to me I don't know what ya doing but keep doing it 1/2 to 1 though runout brass sized with redding body die rcbs rock chucker then neck sized with bushing die no expander then onto the Lee turret press run over a 21st century expander then seating bullet with the same Lee turret press with redding micrometer die.
In my opinion a man needs to pay attention to detail and technique.
Cheers Trev.
Well he tested random rounds I did not look he said to me I don't know what ya doing but keep doing it 1/2 to 1 though runout brass sized with redding body die rcbs rock chucker then neck sized with bushing die no expander then onto the Lee turret press run over a 21st century expander then seating bullet with the same Lee turret press with redding micrometer die.
In my opinion a man needs to pay attention to detail and technique.
Cheers Trev.
dellet
Gold $$ Contributor
Reading through this again this morning and I think it might be the gauge or how it is set up and used.
You have tried two sets of dies, 6.5 and .308, in two different presses, T7 and Rock Chucker, and all have around .003 runout.
The other thing mentioned was the fired 6.5 necks measure .295, what do they measure loaded?
One more question for question clarity, it seems this is a bushing die, with an expanding button, or did I get the two different dies confused?
It might be worth posting all the combinations you have tried in one post.
You have tried two sets of dies, 6.5 and .308, in two different presses, T7 and Rock Chucker, and all have around .003 runout.
The other thing mentioned was the fired 6.5 necks measure .295, what do they measure loaded?
One more question for question clarity, it seems this is a bushing die, with an expanding button, or did I get the two different dies confused?
It might be worth posting all the combinations you have tried in one post.
yes, i meant to do that,,,it would be a lengthy post and i actually wanted to go out shooting so i procrastinated.
it is a f/l bushing die and it has the decapping rod with expanding button. i have experimented with and with out the button, also trying a 21'st century expanding mandrell.
the fired necks are .295, after running the ball or mandrell thru the sized necks, they are about .290 (sometimes .2905 depending on my calipers mood) after loading they are pretty much .292
"You have tried two sets of dies, 6.5 and .308, in two different presses, T7 and Rock Chucker, and all have around .003 runout." ACTUALLY, JUST WITH MY 308. ONCE I GOT THE T-7 I FIGURED I RULED OUT THE PRESSES BECAUSE IT WAS DOING THE SAME THING. BUT IT IS ONE OF THE NEXT THINGS I WANT TO TRY, ALONG WITH SOMEONES FORSTER OR SOME OTHER QUALITY SINGLE STAGE
I WISH it was only .003 runout, here are 20 cases i resized. the runout is written on each, just put .00 in front of the numbers
snert
Silver $$ Contributor
Hi Rockwind, your dilemma is pretty simple and you have answered your own question...
1. Your fired brass has zero runout and your sized brass has significantly more runout. Therefore, either your die or your press or both are adding runout to fired brass that starts with perfect dimensions.
2. You also mention you tried two different presses and floated the dies with no improvement....problem is likely the die.
3. The one thing I don't see you trying is a different die. In particular, you should try a non-bushing die. I suspect if you do so with a good straight die, the runout will improve significantly.
I have used non-bushing dies for quite a few years for exactly the reason you describe. Dies should not add to or increase runout, but F/L bushing dies seem to do this. In many cases, I think the problem is the bushing and not the die. In any case, switching to non-bushing dies reduces the runout to next to nothing if you have good dies.
The other thing to remember is the more you size your case, the more you are likely to create runout. If it comes out of the chamber perfect, the less you mess with it the better it will stay that way. For example, sizing the neck too much will induce runout. What is too much....your concentrity gauge will tell you.
PS. I use custom F/L non-bushing sizing dies and Redding Seaters. Runout at the bullet is zero on about half the cases and .001 or less on the rest. Good dies make the difference.
and realize that when you fire a case you "hot mold" it, and when you size it, you "cold swage" it...reveals a lot of brass imperfections.
i just wanted to update this,, i think i accidently found out the problem, maybe. i started using some redding compitition shell holders to bump my shoulders, see video and suddenly my runout was incredible! plus my shoulder bumping was a lot better,
i had been using a rcbs shell holder because the standard redding shell holder wouldn't take my cases and for whatever reason,, the rcbs must not have been compatiable with the redding dies,,or maybe i was doing something wrong but i now like my redding dies again,,,,,for now,,,,,,until they start misbehaving again. hopefully this is not a one time thing.
i had been using a rcbs shell holder because the standard redding shell holder wouldn't take my cases and for whatever reason,, the rcbs must not have been compatiable with the redding dies,,or maybe i was doing something wrong but i now like my redding dies again,,,,,for now,,,,,,until they start misbehaving again. hopefully this is not a one time thing.
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