I was reading the 6br info page http://www.6mmbr.com/6mmbr.html and they talked about using Full length bushing dies, and i have noticed alot of other articles talking about using Full length dies over neck dies. i was under the impression that full length sizing was only needed if the ammo is going to be used in more than one rifle or if it is for and automatic rifle. Neck sizing is beneficial because the brass if formed to that particular rifles chamber and it does not work the brass as much. I gues what i am asking is..is there any benefit from FL sizing. I am just curious because i need to buy new dies for my 6br with a .265 chamber and i was looking at the redding bushing dies and couldnt decide which one i needed
Full length dies vs. Neck dies
- Thread starter jps120
- Start date
I can neck size my 22-250AI just so long and then they need a full length size for ease of chambering. Also with the full length you can back it off a little and you will just size it a little bit but neck size as well,again it will make the cartrige fit in the gun easily. If there are other rewards that I am unaware of then someone will chime in and correct me. I would buy both personally.
Controversial subject. Not sure what you mean by a .265 chamber? Are you saying you have a .265 neck in your chamber? If so, you need to neck turn your brass, and the correct bushing or a special FL sizer. Clarify and you will get better responses.
In general I like the bushing and shoulder bump approach. I only size two thirds of the neck. Seems to me that gives you the best chance of minimizing concentricity effects. On the other hand if your chamber is not concentric with the bore, then you have no guarantee that the next time you chamber a cartridge it will be in the same angular position as when it was fired last time, and there will be an error.
In general I like the bushing and shoulder bump approach. I only size two thirds of the neck. Seems to me that gives you the best chance of minimizing concentricity effects. On the other hand if your chamber is not concentric with the bore, then you have no guarantee that the next time you chamber a cartridge it will be in the same angular position as when it was fired last time, and there will be an error.
Shynloco
You can lead a horse to water, but ........
jps120,
Not to add "controversy" to your point, but I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents mostly based on what I've found works for me and my rifle. I claim no expertise per se, but have been taught to load my 6mmbr by some friends who have competed seriously.
Something that RonAKA posted set me to thinking and that something he said was he only resizes his cases two thirds. I was taught that one half to two thirds is max when resizing and that helps create greater accuracy. The next thing is the dies that you use and I use strictly Wilson Dies and an Arbor Press for "resizing." I also use Lapua brass where the necks have been turned to within .002 of the chamber size, hence the less need for Full Length sizing or even bumping the shoulders. In fact, I'm on my 17th reloads with one set of 6mmbr Lapua casings and have only had to bump the shoulders once (using a Redding Body Die and Redding Competition Shellholders) in the past 8 months.
And to explain what I've discovered by using WIlson dies in reloading the 6mm, is that my finished cartridge/bullet runout is normal within .002 of each other and that is where the neck has been resized to one-half of the neck compared to the .004 variance between finished cartridges using Redding Dies. Now in NO WAY am I bad mouthing Redding Dies. I use STRICTLY either Redding or WIlson Dies in all my rifles. I have just found that the WIlson Dies give me better accuracy in my 6br loads. Just food for thought.
Not to add "controversy" to your point, but I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents mostly based on what I've found works for me and my rifle. I claim no expertise per se, but have been taught to load my 6mmbr by some friends who have competed seriously.
Something that RonAKA posted set me to thinking and that something he said was he only resizes his cases two thirds. I was taught that one half to two thirds is max when resizing and that helps create greater accuracy. The next thing is the dies that you use and I use strictly Wilson Dies and an Arbor Press for "resizing." I also use Lapua brass where the necks have been turned to within .002 of the chamber size, hence the less need for Full Length sizing or even bumping the shoulders. In fact, I'm on my 17th reloads with one set of 6mmbr Lapua casings and have only had to bump the shoulders once (using a Redding Body Die and Redding Competition Shellholders) in the past 8 months.
And to explain what I've discovered by using WIlson dies in reloading the 6mm, is that my finished cartridge/bullet runout is normal within .002 of each other and that is where the neck has been resized to one-half of the neck compared to the .004 variance between finished cartridges using Redding Dies. Now in NO WAY am I bad mouthing Redding Dies. I use STRICTLY either Redding or WIlson Dies in all my rifles. I have just found that the WIlson Dies give me better accuracy in my 6br loads. Just food for thought.
jps120: Two of my 6BR chamberings are also .265" necks, and my loaded round neck diameters are also .263" using Lapua brass. I've been using the Redding FL Type S neck bushing die for years. I keep the sizer die body set so the headspace length is the same or very close to the as fired length. 1.159" as fired, sized to 1.158" but never less. Gives me a bolt closing with just a little resistance, brass lasts a very long time, some having 32 loadings, and I never anneal the necks.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
If you are going to get the full potential out of your rifle, you will need to use a FL die every time. It is a pressure thing. These cases will deliver a lot of performance, but in order for them to do so the working pressures will be high enough so that the cases will be tight if you don't FL size.
As far as not FL sizing to gain accuracy, at the sort of pressures that I am referring to it is quite the opposite. Just about all of the shooters that compete in short range Benchrest FL size every time. The trick, if you want to call it that, is to have a die that is a close fit to your chamber, and to adjust it to bump the shoulder back only a slight MEASURED amount, about .001".
Fortunately, Harrell's Precision
http://harrellsprec.com/index.php?crn=207&rn=384&action=show_detail
makes dies for your caliber for a reasonable price. All you have to do is send him a fired case or two.I usually recommend that they are fired three times, or until the bolt gets snug, just being neck sized, so that they are a good fit to your chamber.
Several years ago, a couple of friends had built 6BRs and being a bit headstrong bought standard FL bushing dies for their rifles, instead of ordering from Harrell's as I recommended. After they had shot their rifles enough for the brass to get tight at the back (not long at the pressures that they were using) they found that their shiny new dies did not size the back of their cases enough, when adjusted for the correct amount of shoulder bump, so they ended up buying twice. They listen more carefully these days. ;D
As far as the old neck size till they get tight idea goes, there is nothing to be gained, and accuracy to be lost, because not all of your cases will not get tight at the same number of firings, and if you shoot a group with some cases that are tight and others that are not, it will be larger than if they were all tight, or all not.
A custom fitted die will move the brass so little that the fit to the chamber will still be good, and bolt closure will be consistent.
Another issue is that it is common for shooters to not know that they should lightly grease the rear surfaces of locking lugs, and if they do not, and the brass is tight, the lugs can easily be galled.
All in all, there is a lot of misinformation out there, a lot of which has come from the frustration of dealing with what standard FL dies do to brass, over sizing the necks before the expander ball is pulled back through, which results in crooked cases.
As far as not FL sizing to gain accuracy, at the sort of pressures that I am referring to it is quite the opposite. Just about all of the shooters that compete in short range Benchrest FL size every time. The trick, if you want to call it that, is to have a die that is a close fit to your chamber, and to adjust it to bump the shoulder back only a slight MEASURED amount, about .001".
Fortunately, Harrell's Precision
http://harrellsprec.com/index.php?crn=207&rn=384&action=show_detail
makes dies for your caliber for a reasonable price. All you have to do is send him a fired case or two.I usually recommend that they are fired three times, or until the bolt gets snug, just being neck sized, so that they are a good fit to your chamber.
Several years ago, a couple of friends had built 6BRs and being a bit headstrong bought standard FL bushing dies for their rifles, instead of ordering from Harrell's as I recommended. After they had shot their rifles enough for the brass to get tight at the back (not long at the pressures that they were using) they found that their shiny new dies did not size the back of their cases enough, when adjusted for the correct amount of shoulder bump, so they ended up buying twice. They listen more carefully these days. ;D
As far as the old neck size till they get tight idea goes, there is nothing to be gained, and accuracy to be lost, because not all of your cases will not get tight at the same number of firings, and if you shoot a group with some cases that are tight and others that are not, it will be larger than if they were all tight, or all not.
A custom fitted die will move the brass so little that the fit to the chamber will still be good, and bolt closure will be consistent.
Another issue is that it is common for shooters to not know that they should lightly grease the rear surfaces of locking lugs, and if they do not, and the brass is tight, the lugs can easily be galled.
All in all, there is a lot of misinformation out there, a lot of which has come from the frustration of dealing with what standard FL dies do to brass, over sizing the necks before the expander ball is pulled back through, which results in crooked cases.
Attached are typical results with my 6mmBR using a Redding bushing die. Would they all be the smaller size if I used FL dies? I have to wonder. For now I'm fine using the neck die and the bump die.
This is out of a no turn .272 chamber and I've not turned the brass at all. I shoot using ribbons on a dowl for wind flags. I consider myself a novice shooter at best.
This is out of a no turn .272 chamber and I've not turned the brass at all. I shoot using ribbons on a dowl for wind flags. I consider myself a novice shooter at best.
Attachments
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
Your groups look nice, and it is entirely possible to find a very accurate load that is low enough in pressure that neck sizing will work...but if you are looking for all that your cartridge will give you, with the best accuracy, for say long range varminting, that approach will limit your results. What velocity? Your load seems light, and your powder choice very good for accuracy, but a little fast to get maximum performance from a BR with that weight of bullet. I will say that, based on my friend's results, loads like yours can be very accurate, quite pleasing at the range, but he is more into Blitzkings going really fast, and accurate, for long range prairie dog work. For that he goes to a slightly slower powder and pours it to it. (and has to FL resize) I guess it depends on how hot you load.
My first batch of 6BR Lapua brass has reached 5 times fired. I'm using the Forster bushing/bump die. There is zero problem chambering them. The nice part of a bushing die is that you can select your sizing for the brass neck thickness you have without having to order a special die. Also, you can independently select how much neck you want to size and still bump the shoulder. I size two thirds of the neck, but still bump the shoulder .5 to 1 mil. You can't do that with a FL die. If you only partially resize the neck then you can't bump the shoulder.
Ron - I made a scope adjustment after the second cause I had changed powder and wanted the impact down in the grid.
Boyd, the hottest load I've gone with N133 is 30.2 grains. That is one grain over what my 3rd edition VihtaVuori manual suggests and 1.5 grain over what their 08 internet reloading guide suggests. I always play it safe, but I don't see any signs of pressure at 30.2. Would you suggest I bump that up a bit and see what happens?
With the same 70 grain bullets I've tried N135 with nearly identical results as the N133, at two different nodes. One at 32.4 and one at 33.9. Attached is a N135 group shot under more difficult wind conditions. The really nice group was shot when my ribbons completely died and I rattled off 5 shots really quick before the wind come up again. The other groups are a little worse than normal for N135 due to the wind. With very little wind the N135 groups in the mid to high 2s, and some groups in the 3s.
I've used Varget but the accuracy wasn't as good. I went up to 32.1 with Varget and the best groups were at 31.5. I tried H322 but the results were terrible at all powder weights.
The gunsmith that built the rifle told me to only FL resize if I bought a custom die. I'm not ready to take it to that level so for now I will continue to neck size. (Okay, I don't own an arbor press to be honest.)
I'm finding what Frank said to be true with neck sizing. The brass is not growing at all.....7 reloads and they all chamber perfectly without bumping them back. Bullets seat with nearly identical force and the cartridges chamber the same.
Boyd, the hottest load I've gone with N133 is 30.2 grains. That is one grain over what my 3rd edition VihtaVuori manual suggests and 1.5 grain over what their 08 internet reloading guide suggests. I always play it safe, but I don't see any signs of pressure at 30.2. Would you suggest I bump that up a bit and see what happens?
With the same 70 grain bullets I've tried N135 with nearly identical results as the N133, at two different nodes. One at 32.4 and one at 33.9. Attached is a N135 group shot under more difficult wind conditions. The really nice group was shot when my ribbons completely died and I rattled off 5 shots really quick before the wind come up again. The other groups are a little worse than normal for N135 due to the wind. With very little wind the N135 groups in the mid to high 2s, and some groups in the 3s.
I've used Varget but the accuracy wasn't as good. I went up to 32.1 with Varget and the best groups were at 31.5. I tried H322 but the results were terrible at all powder weights.
The gunsmith that built the rifle told me to only FL resize if I bought a custom die. I'm not ready to take it to that level so for now I will continue to neck size. (Okay, I don't own an arbor press to be honest.)
I'm finding what Frank said to be true with neck sizing. The brass is not growing at all.....7 reloads and they all chamber perfectly without bumping them back. Bullets seat with nearly identical force and the cartridges chamber the same.
Attachments
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
Otter,
My compliments on your shooting. If your rifle is mostly being shot at the range I wouldn't change a thing that you are doing. For a comparison, my friend's slow but very accurate load for a 67 gr. Tucker #3 (bullet) was 29.5, for a velocity of possibly 3,150. It shoots like my PPC. His varmint loads have 70 gr. Blitzkings going around 3,550. With that bullet, at that speed, he shoots in the 2s and 3s, with an occasional 1.He finds that the custom match bullets give more consistent accuracy.
By comparison, my shorter barreled (21.5") PPC is loaded to around 3,350 with a 67 gr, bullet. If it ain't broke...
Boyd
My compliments on your shooting. If your rifle is mostly being shot at the range I wouldn't change a thing that you are doing. For a comparison, my friend's slow but very accurate load for a 67 gr. Tucker #3 (bullet) was 29.5, for a velocity of possibly 3,150. It shoots like my PPC. His varmint loads have 70 gr. Blitzkings going around 3,550. With that bullet, at that speed, he shoots in the 2s and 3s, with an occasional 1.He finds that the custom match bullets give more consistent accuracy.
By comparison, my shorter barreled (21.5") PPC is loaded to around 3,350 with a 67 gr, bullet. If it ain't broke...
Boyd
Thanks Boyd. No one at the range I shoot at are benchrest shooters, so I don't really have anyone to compare groups with. I'm quite happy with the groups I'm getting but I don't really know if I'm getting everything out of the gun that it is capable of. Sounds like I'm close. Thanks again.
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.