FTF problem

[CharlieNC]

I've been having ftf problems in two rifles, different rounds, from the same brick of cci450. Coincidence?

 

[1shot]

I've been having ftf problems in two rifles, different rounds, from the same brick of cci450. Coincidence?

What lot number?

Lloyd

 

[Jdne5b]

Random curiosity.. what trigger are you using?

I have a buddy with the same FTF problems in a Panda with CCI BR4 primers, new Lapua Palma 308 brass. Even jammed he had some not go off.

 

[AlNyhus]

Random curiosity.. what trigger are you using? I have a buddy with the same FTF problems in a Panda with CCI BR4 primers, new Lapua Palma 308 brass. Even jammed he had some not go off.

Make sure the cocking piece isn't dragging across the top of the trigger as it comes forward. Dykem or a Magic Marker on the top connector piece on the trigger to check it works great.

A trigger that fit too tightly in the trigger hangar is also something to look for.

Good shootin'. -Al

 

[dkhunt14]

Sorry,
Didn’t take any pics of the fired rounds

Lloyd View attachment 1169175 View attachment 1169175 View attachment 1169176

The primers in pic 3 look like they were hit more then once. Matt

 

[1shot]

Random curiosity.. what trigger are you using?

I have a buddy with the same FTF problems in a Panda with CCI BR4 primers, new Lapua Palma 308 brass. Even jammed he had some not go off.

I have an Ex-treme trigger in at the moment, but I had a Bix&Andy previously. Had FTF with both.
Lloyd

 

[1shot]

The primers in pic 3 look like they were hit more then once. Matt

They were. 3 times to be exact.
Lloyd

 

[Iowa Fox]

You might have two issues, mechanical/headspace. Either seat long or do a false shoulder or you are going to stretch your brand new brass.

 

[KY_Windage]

I also wonder if you are damaging the primer by seating them so deep, because the anvil on the small 450's (being proud) bottoms out before the cup does. Anyway, I would try seating flush and see what happens.

 

[Webster]

I’m reasonably sure I know what caused this problem, but I want to run this past all of you anyhow.

Here as a little background on the problem. The rifle is a Kelbly BB Panda action with a 1-10 twist 308 barrel. I bought the barrel as a blank and had it chambered up by a well-known gunsmith late in the season of 2018.

I started break-in/load development with new Alpha brass that had been neck sized only and only about 30% of the rounds loaded would fire using CCI 450 primers.

I didn’t mess with this rifle until a few weeks ago and bought 200 pieces of new Peterson brass. (Couldn’t seem to locate the Alpha brass) Again, neck sized only and the same issue appeared again. I took measurements from fired brass, as opposed to new and the new brass is .007 shorter as measured to the datum line of the shoulder.

Well that explains the FTF, but the “why” is the question.

My solution:

I started to do a little load development with the Berger 200-20x bulled jammed .010 but the results were poor. So rather than burn up components and bbl. life, I gave a modified COW method a try.

I put 15 gr. of VV 3N37 in a case with a small wad of paper towel and lit it up with a small pistol mag. primer. (I’m reasoning that the pistol primer would light up easier that the hard cup #450 primer.)

SUCCESS!! Now all the brass measures the same.

Your thoughts as to what caused this issue are welcomed.
Thanks, Lloyd

From CCI 4/6/20

Cody B./Technical Service Rep.
CCI/Speer/Alliant
2299 Snake River Ave.
Lewiston, ID 83501
(866)286-7436

We recommend .005-.008 below flush is often times optimum from what we see to ensure that the anvil is seated correctly and to reduce any possibility of a misfire associated with seating depth.

Notice he says to insure the anvil is seated.

 

[bozo699]

From CCI 4/6/20

Cody B./Technical Service Rep.
CCI/Speer/Alliant
2299 Snake River Ave.
Lewiston, ID 83501
(866)286-7436

We recommend .005-.008 below flush is often times optimum from what we see to ensure that the anvil is seated correctly and to reduce any possibility of a misfire associated with seating depth.

Notice he says to insure the anvil is seated.

Yes I believe they need a crush fit! Everyone I know seats with a crush fit I personally don’t believe leaving them flush is even safe!
Wayne

 

[KY_Windage]

Yeah, that's prolly why I can't get any good 5-shot groups with my 204 at 100 yds -- primers are too high.



And why my 7-08 won't shoot at 800 yards:



My RCBS hand-primer tool won't even seat below flush. But what do they know about shooting?

 

[Stingray]

I'm reaching here...
Weak spring combined with excessive head space?

Call Kelby's - had the same problem with many suggestions from those who know so much more than I do. Tried everything. Gunsmith looked at it said common problem - firing pin fall. Called Kelby's and ordered a new hanger. Problem solved.

 

[1shot]

Well fellow shooters, I got the chance to shoot some of the virgin brass with wolf SR-M primers and all 12 went off without issue. I reloaded those same cases and put in the 450's and they all fired as well.
As I have stated earlier, this receiver/trigger combination worked flawlessly with a different barrel on it, so I don't think the trigger had anything to do with it.
This is a case of a hard primer cup coupled with a logh head space and short new brass.
As an aside note, I got two loads that gave me single digit ES, and I will tune these ASAP.
Thanks for all the suggestions,

Lloyd

 

[243winxb]

They were. 3 times to be exact.

(3 pin strikes, same round)

The head to datum measurement may get shorter each strike?

Had a bad CCI 400 primer in Savage Axis 223. The extractor allowed the round to move forward each firing pin strike on the dead primer. Shorting the head to datum measurement.

I dont think its possible with a Rem 700 type extractor? Have not tested it.

Note: I cut the shoulder off a 223 case. Inserted new primer. Place case so extractor held the case. Primer fired every time. No shoulder needed. Lots of head clearance.

 

[NorCalMikie]

I took measurements from fired brass, as opposed to new and the new brass is .007 shorter as measured to the datum line of the shoulder.

There's your problem right there!!
Brass is too short for the chamber (headspace, brass not chamber) so the firing pin hits the primer (soft strike), pushed the case forward in the chamber and you get FTF.
A quick cure is to pull the bullets out a bit to jam into the lands and once fired and formed to the chamber size, make sure you don't push the shoulders back too far and end up with FTF again. After they fire, neck size and go shooting again.
It goes back to KISS! Don't make more out of it than needed.

 

[dkhunt14]

Yeah, that's prolly why I can't get any good 5-shot groups with my 204 at 100 yds -- primers are too high.



And why my 7-08 won't shoot at 800 yards:



My RCBS hand-primer tool won't even seat below flush. But what do they know about shooting?

Every RCBS hand primer I have seen is adjustable for depth. Matt

 

[KY_Windage]

Yes, and I have seen only mine, but the diameter of the ram on mine is larger than the diameter of the primer pocket on a Large Rifle case, and much larger than the diameter of the pocket on a Small Rifle case. There is no way it going to seat a primer below flush.

But, that is exactly where I want it so we're good.

 

[KY_Windage]

Note: I cut the shoulder off a 223 case. Inserted new primer. Place case so extractor held the case. Primer fired every time. No shoulder needed. Lots of head clearance.View attachment 1169634

Yeah, I wondered if maybe the problem with short cases wasn't that they were pushing the round in without the extractor popping over the rim.

But would 450s make a difference?

 

[JMayo]

Shouldn't be that short ...that's allot.

I never understood using a firing pin to fully seat primer and make it go off at the same time.
I wouldn't think consistency would be in that.
Most seaters I've seen have a lp ram and a sp ram. I Use the one that corresponds.