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FTF problem

All,
I have come to the conclusion that the number 450 primers with a hard cup coupled with a long headspace with new brass is causing the FTF problem. I will attempt to verify this suspicion by doing some load development in the next couple of days. Stay tuned for a follow up report.
Lloyd
 
All,
I have come to the conclusion that the number 450 primers with a hard cup coupled with a long headspace with new brass is causing the FTF problem. I will attempt to verify this suspicion by doing some load development in the next couple of days. Stay tuned for a follow up report.
Lloyd
I'm curious to see if the 450's will ignite on a fired ,sized case.
 
I'm curious to see if the 450's will ignite on a fired ,sized case.

I would also recommend against seating your primers so deep. I have several times seen that cause light strikes with various rifles. I try to set mine exactly flush, and I have never had a problem with that, either FTF or accuracy.

And it w/b nice to see the primer indentions on the 450's, in good focus if possible.
 
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Soak a 450 in WD-40 or similar over-night, then load it flush in a primer pocket in properly sized case and load the case into the rifle and "fire" it, and see if the strike pushes it forward.
 
Ok, and what am I looking for? I have always heard that the primer should be bottomed out for the best, most consistent ignition.
Lloyd
 
Depth of pockets in respect to height of primer cup, coupled with headspace and pin fall.
I think this is where @KY_Windage is going.
 
You are looking to see if the strike moves the primer forward. You can't tell in regular fired rounds because the explosion often pushes the primer back to flush (IOW, until it hits the bolt-face). But you should be able to tell with a new primer in a case (and no powder or bullet). (I say to deaden with WD-40 to prevent the "pop" from scaring the wife. ;)

I don't have any Large 450's but I do have Small 450's, so I just did the experiment in a 204 case. Only soaked for an hour so I got about 10% of a regular primer pop, but certainly no force capable of pushing a primer anywhere. (If that is even possible without a bullet being in the way.)

I used brass that has been fired several times so as to not have a tight pocket. I measured the pocket and the primer and there were several thousandths the primer could have moved forward before it bottomed out. The case-to-shoulder measurement told me that the bolt would be hard to close, and it was, so I know there was no room for the case to move forward upon being struck. I seated the primer to exactly flush, so I could detect any movement.

The primer did not move at all.



I seat all primers (including .308/'06 cases) flush and I have no consistency problems out to 1,000 yards. Well, at least none caused by the primers. :)

I know people say to do it but seating below flush just seems to be asking for problems to me, and for no good reason. Try it with one of your cases and see if the primer stays put. If it does then I doubt you are gaining anything by seating below flush.

That difference combined with your short cases could easily explain your FTFs.
 
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@1shot, I was/am having an issue with the chamber on my 06' headspace.
It was set up with go gauge, but then I had the pin bushed to stop primer flow. I believe he cleaned up the bolt face. 0015-.002. This coupled with some brass I moved the shoulders back to far I believe is what caused me to have some FtF.
I too set the depth of my pockets to whatever the Lyman tool is every time I clean them, and set my primers to bottom below flush.
Fast forward a couple more weeks, and I noticed to much brass flow when sizing.
After starting a thread on the subject i got some helpful PM's from @mikegaiz and @Boatschool02.
To solve my excessive case length growth it was brought to my attention to use a piece of virgin brass to set my headspace.
And the light went on!!
Sorry about the long winded response but I just wanted to cover what I learned as it sounds like we had the same problem.
 
I had the same issues a couple of times when fireforming 6BRA cases with 20 grains of bullseye and 1/8 piece of toilet paper when I used BR4s. When I switched to Fed 205s or pistol primers I completely solved the problem.

My theory is when the case is not firmly held in place--like we get with a false shoulder or a jammed bullet, and we use a hard cup primer: the movement of case sometimes dissipates enough of the firing pin energy to prevent ignition.

When I was having issues I eventually did get all the FTF cases to fire by slamming the bolt closed and firing again. Some rounds need three attempts to fire. Again, a soft cup primer solved the issue.

Also, I have never had any FTF issues at all with fire formed cases and BR4s.
 
Had one or two FTF's with my last new batch of Lapua palma cases and CCI BR4's.

Going to try the false shoulder approach on new brass, expand the necks then size down half way using a Wilson inline neck sizing die.
 
Yeah first firing use cci400's or jam deep into lands.
(Softer primers)
I've got 20 out of 200 that didn't fire Friday ...gonna jam the heck out of them.
 
I had the same issues a couple of times when fireforming 6BRA cases with 20 grains of bullseye and 1/8 piece of toilet paper when I used BR4s. When I switched to Fed 205s or pistol primers I completely solved the problem.

My theory is when the case is not firmly held in place--like we get with a false shoulder or a jammed bullet, and we use a hard cup primer: the movement of case sometimes dissipates enough of the firing pin energy to prevent ignition.

When I was having issues I eventually did get all the FTF cases to fire by slamming the bolt closed and firing again. Some rounds need three attempts to fire. Again, a soft cup primer solved the issue.

Also, I have never had any FTF issues at all with fire formed cases and BR4s.

Spot on!..... my findings ff 6brx as well!
Wayne
 
@1shot, I was/am having an issue with the chamber on my 06' headspace.
It was set up with go gauge, but then I had the pin bushed to stop primer flow. I believe he cleaned up the bolt face. 0015-.002. This coupled with some brass I moved the shoulders back to far I believe is what caused me to have some FtF.
I too set the depth of my pockets to whatever the Lyman tool is every time I clean them, and set my primers to bottom below flush.
Fast forward a couple more weeks, and I noticed to much brass flow when sizing.
After starting a thread on the subject i got some helpful PM's from @mikegaiz and @Boatschool02.
To solve my excessive case length growth it was brought to my attention to use a piece of virgin brass to set my headspace.
And the light went on!!
Sorry about the long winded response but I just wanted to cover what I learned as it sounds like we had the same problem.
that's how I setup my HS just a little bit of feel on the bolt..with new brass that I will be shooting
 
Ran into this once (in a match doing sone fire forming at cascade). Put a small piece of 20# paper (not cardstock) between bolt face and live round... that should give you a bit of pressure to close and the round won’t go forward when struck by pin. The paper will compress. The pin will go right through. and ever round needs a new small (1/4” square) piece. Gives you something to kill that 7s delay.

P.s. I had “sized” virgin brass and bumped the shoulder way to far
 
I had the same issues a couple of times when fireforming 6BRA cases with 20 grains of bullseye and 1/8 piece of toilet paper when I used BR4s. When I switched to Fed 205s or pistol primers I completely solved the problem.

My theory is when the case is not firmly held in place--like we get with a false shoulder or a jammed bullet, and we use a hard cup primer: the movement of case sometimes dissipates enough of the firing pin energy to prevent ignition.

When I was having issues I eventually did get all the FTF cases to fire by slamming the bolt closed and firing again. Some rounds need three attempts to fire. Again, a soft cup primer solved the issue.

Also, I have never had any FTF issues at all with fire formed cases and BR4s.
This happened to me as well while FF 6BRX. It looks like we are seeing a pattern develop. Excessive head space coupled with a hard primer. I primed 12 cases with Wolf SR-M primers last night. If I can get out of work while there is still sunlight, I'm going to give them a try.
Thanks,

Lloyd
 
This happened to me as well while FF 6BRX. It looks like we are seeing a pattern develop. Excessive head space coupled with a hard primer. I primed 12 cases with Wolf SR-M primers last night. If I can get out of work while there is still sunlight, I'm going to give them a try.
Thanks,

Lloyd

Lloyd,
I have always used 205’s to ff my 6brx, Dasher and 6brdx after I learned 450s were to hard to many FTF won’t waste my br4s I think at one time I also used pistol primers.
Wayne
 

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