The best solution to your fouling problem is to have a competent gunsmith lap the barrel for you. This will improve the finish of the bore and mostly likely increase your accuracy. I have had a lot of experience with this process on many barrels and seen much reduced fouling. Sounds like it would be the best choice for your firearm.
Fouling Beast: Tubb Final Finish?
- Thread starter Brians356
- Start date
I have a factory Remmy 243 that I hunt with that shoots great but fouls bad like yours is. I have some Dyna bore coat I'm going to try in it. Just another option for you to consider, should be able to do a couple barrels with one bottle is the reason I'm going to try it over the tubbs.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/176814/dynatek-bore-coat-1-oz-and-alcohol-cleaner-1-oz-aluminum-canister?cm_vc=ProductFinding
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/176814/dynatek-bore-coat-1-oz-and-alcohol-cleaner-1-oz-aluminum-canister?cm_vc=ProductFinding
Brians356
Silver $$ Contributor
jsthntn247 said:
Interesting product. I wonder how effective it will be if the bore is badly fire cracked? I.e. can it fill in the pores permanently? It would be interesting to see "before" and "after" bore pics starting with a degraded bore such as illustrated by Webster's photos.
Brian
searcher
Gold $$ Contributor
Facing the same dilemna you are, I acquired a .223 Remington Varmint that shot incredibly well for a factory gun (I did change the trigger and skim bedded the action). Having been used to cleaning the custom barrels on the guns I regularly shoot, cleaning this barrel was a X#*@%. I ordered another barrel in the event it would not clean well after the Tubbs treatment which I opted to take a chance and try. The gun cleans up significantly easier and does not foul nearly as bad. Absolutely no accuracy was lost - and none gained from what I can tell. This gun has (and still does) occasionally shoot groups in the "ones" - though its use is that of a live varminter. I felt good enough about the outcome to order three more kits for a handful of other factory-barreled guns I have never been happy with. The results were the same - easier to clean - no loss in accuracy and minimal - if any -real accuracy gain. I do have a bore scope and the finished barrel is noticeably smoother, with the surface of tooling marks smoother. The barrel does not come out like a hand-lapped custom barrel. The coated bullets are not aggressive enough to do that - or at least with the number given to do the job. I'd do it again - but am out of factory barrels needing it. I have over 3,000 rounds on that first barrel since treating. If the throat gets too bad, I wil try the "throat maintenance" bullets Tubbs sells. It may be quite some time before I need my new barrel.
Brians356
Silver $$ Contributor
Re: Fouling Beast: Tubb Final Finish? UPDATE
I finally completed all 50 rounds of the Tubb Final Finish on my 1970s R-700 in 6mm Rem.
Before treatment, it took 5 days, many all-day or overnight soaks in Patch-Out, and a lot of brushing (and occasionally JB compound) to remove the copper fouling left by a handful of rounds.
After treatment, a 4-hour soak in Patch-Out, no brushing, and it's gone.
However, the leade (freebore) was advanced .050 - .060 inches, depending on the bullet, so now lighter bullets are a problem if I want them anywhere near lands. For example, the flat-based 70-gr TNT at the lands has only 0.1" of neck engagement. Yikes!
I finally completed all 50 rounds of the Tubb Final Finish on my 1970s R-700 in 6mm Rem.
Before treatment, it took 5 days, many all-day or overnight soaks in Patch-Out, and a lot of brushing (and occasionally JB compound) to remove the copper fouling left by a handful of rounds.
After treatment, a 4-hour soak in Patch-Out, no brushing, and it's gone.
However, the leade (freebore) was advanced .050 - .060 inches, depending on the bullet, so now lighter bullets are a problem if I want them anywhere near lands. For example, the flat-based 70-gr TNT at the lands has only 0.1" of neck engagement. Yikes!
bigedp51
brians356
I have many milsurp rifles with frosted pitted bores and learned a great deal about cleaning their bores. I give these barrels a shot of foam bore cleaner and let it sit over night and I do not use copper or bronze bore brushes. If you have a rough bore it will "EAT" your bore brush and give false copper readings, so I just use foam and a patch and minimum cleaning rod time in the bore.
No matter how clean and how much copper you remove the next time you pull the trigger it all comes back, and it starts all over again.
Below is a custom made hand lapped barrel.
Below is a before and after fire lapping of a new Savage barrel, please note the copper in the lands after fire lapping.
Now we have enlargements of the throat and two inches from the muzzle of a button rifled bore.
Even after fire lapping a bore like above it will still eat up a bore brush in short order and give a false positive for copper. And all you did by fire lapping was grind down the high spots and make your bore bigger.
Spare the cleaning rod and spoil your bore and use foam bore cleaner, foam doesn't have any sharp edges or rub your bore the wrong way.
Below is one shot of foam bore cleaner in a frosted milsurp barrel without brushing and its all the cleaning it needs. (it isn't a custom hand lapped barrel)
If you want a tough bore to clean then buy a WWII Russian Mosin Nagant that Ivan didn't clean properly and the corrosive primers ate up the bore.
And the best part about cleaning milsurp rifles is all you need is a little rain.
I have many milsurp rifles with frosted pitted bores and learned a great deal about cleaning their bores. I give these barrels a shot of foam bore cleaner and let it sit over night and I do not use copper or bronze bore brushes. If you have a rough bore it will "EAT" your bore brush and give false copper readings, so I just use foam and a patch and minimum cleaning rod time in the bore.
No matter how clean and how much copper you remove the next time you pull the trigger it all comes back, and it starts all over again.
Below is a custom made hand lapped barrel.
Below is a before and after fire lapping of a new Savage barrel, please note the copper in the lands after fire lapping.
Now we have enlargements of the throat and two inches from the muzzle of a button rifled bore.
Even after fire lapping a bore like above it will still eat up a bore brush in short order and give a false positive for copper. And all you did by fire lapping was grind down the high spots and make your bore bigger.
Spare the cleaning rod and spoil your bore and use foam bore cleaner, foam doesn't have any sharp edges or rub your bore the wrong way.
Below is one shot of foam bore cleaner in a frosted milsurp barrel without brushing and its all the cleaning it needs. (it isn't a custom hand lapped barrel)
If you want a tough bore to clean then buy a WWII Russian Mosin Nagant that Ivan didn't clean properly and the corrosive primers ate up the bore.
And the best part about cleaning milsurp rifles is all you need is a little rain.
Brians356
Silver $$ Contributor
bigedp51,
Don't let me put words in your mouth, but are you saying that by reducing my copper removing regimen from 5 days (using lots of elbow grease and ten 8-hour soaks in Patch-Out) to 4 hours (or less, haven't really determined minimum soak time) with no brushing I have really accomplished nothing at all?
Don't let me put words in your mouth, but are you saying that by reducing my copper removing regimen from 5 days (using lots of elbow grease and ten 8-hour soaks in Patch-Out) to 4 hours (or less, haven't really determined minimum soak time) with no brushing I have really accomplished nothing at all?
bigedp51
No I didn't say that, in plain English your bore was as rough as a cob and you fire lapped it making it slightly less rough as a cob.
And rough barrels eat bore brushes and give a false positive for copper. And you can't make a silk purse from a sows ear..........but you can make a leather purse from hundreds of pig ears if you don't care what it looks like.
And I keep my good pigs and sell off the bad pigs that eat too much copper.
Now watch the bore scope video below and learn about average pigs and best in show with blue ribbons.
BoreScope Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hf9zZqn00CA
And even a pig with really clean smooth white teeth is still a pig, BUT if what you did makes you happy then just smile about it.
(but watch your cholesterol with all that pork)
And rough barrels eat bore brushes and give a false positive for copper. And you can't make a silk purse from a sows ear..........but you can make a leather purse from hundreds of pig ears if you don't care what it looks like.
And I keep my good pigs and sell off the bad pigs that eat too much copper.
Now watch the bore scope video below and learn about average pigs and best in show with blue ribbons.
BoreScope Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hf9zZqn00CA
And even a pig with really clean smooth white teeth is still a pig, BUT if what you did makes you happy then just smile about it.
(but watch your cholesterol with all that pork)
Brians356
Silver $$ Contributor
I'm not using a brush, so false positives are not a concern.
(I was using a brush when the barrel fouled heavily, but ipso facto "false positive" could not apply, since copper was being deposited heavily by the bullets, therefore even present copper from a brush the "true positive" copper signal would render "false positive" moot.)
Now, a question: Is it your opinion that a good barrel is immune from copper fouling?
(I was using a brush when the barrel fouled heavily, but ipso facto "false positive" could not apply, since copper was being deposited heavily by the bullets, therefore even present copper from a brush the "true positive" copper signal would render "false positive" moot.)
Now, a question: Is it your opinion that a good barrel is immune from copper fouling?
bigedp51
brians356 said:
I don't know I have "NEVER" had a "perfect" barrel that didn't collect copper to some degree, and more barrels are damaged by over cleaning than any other reason.
But I can tell you this, by fire lapping and using 50 rounds to fire lap your barrel you made your bore larger in diameter. And now would be the time to slug your bore and find out how much larger it is than the bullets you plan on shooting. If you made the bore too large in diameter your rifle may not like shooting boat tail bullets.
The before and after fire lapping photos I posted were done by firing less than 20 rounds because they didn't want to over do the fire lapping and enlarge the bore. And without you bore scoping and slugging your bore "BEFORE" fire lapping you have no idea what "smoothing" the bore did to the diameter of your bore.
Now slug your bore and shoot some boat tail bullets and let us know how happy you are now with your rifles accuracy and your fire lapped bore.
I would rather have a barrel that collected copper than a barrel that's easy to clean but is no longer accurate.
Brians356
Silver $$ Contributor
Fair enough.
The rifle was in a pawn shop, and is over 45 years old - Let's start with that. The copper fouling was so intense, my choices were a) sell it, b) live with it, c) re-barrel it, or d) try to restore it. The Tubb system was my choice for d).
Naturally anything that laps will enlarge the bore somewhat, but if it shoots decently and cleans easily (the latter already verified) then I am satisfied. And if it happens to shoot great (for an OEM R-700) I will be ecstatic!
The rifle was in a pawn shop, and is over 45 years old - Let's start with that. The copper fouling was so intense, my choices were a) sell it, b) live with it, c) re-barrel it, or d) try to restore it. The Tubb system was my choice for d).
Naturally anything that laps will enlarge the bore somewhat, but if it shoots decently and cleans easily (the latter already verified) then I am satisfied. And if it happens to shoot great (for an OEM R-700) I will be ecstatic!
Amen to what Ed said about the bore diameter becoming larger. I fire-lapped a 03-A3 barrel because of heavy copper fouling. It had been very accurate, the bore was slugged before the fire-lapping and found to be a true .308".
After the fire-lapping, not only was the throat .065" longer, but the bore was slugged at .3085". It was no longer even close to be considered "accurate". It was scraped.
After the fire-lapping, not only was the throat .065" longer, but the bore was slugged at .3085". It was no longer even close to be considered "accurate". It was scraped.
bigedp51
fdshuster
I had a 03-A3 also I bought for $60.00 in the mid 1970s, the bore was a sewer pipe, pitted and frosted. The throat two inches in was .312, the middle of the barrel was .3095 and all you could see at the muzzle was swirl marks for rifling. Long story short, the most accurate bullet in this 03 was a 170 grain Hornady 30-30 bullet. The 30-30 bullet was designed for lower velocities and when fired and kicked in the seat of the pants would fill and seal the bore. I carried this 03A3 for years using it as a rain gun and its accuracy was more than good enough for hunting.
My point about boat tail bullets and over sized bores is you could have a rifle that would key hole boat tail bullets and because of the boat tail design the bullet would not seal the bore. But a flat base bullet could be made to fit and seal the bore and still shoot accurately and this is a common problem many milsurp rifles have.
The OP will need to shoot his rifle with various type bullets and check the results, BUT what is even more important to remember is the damage you can do trying to clean the bore of a rifle that eats copper. And foam bore cleaner doesn't rub the bore the wrong way.
Below is one application of foam bore cleaner and no brushing or scrubbing in a frosted milsurp bore, and 99% of the copper is gone.
I had a 03-A3 also I bought for $60.00 in the mid 1970s, the bore was a sewer pipe, pitted and frosted. The throat two inches in was .312, the middle of the barrel was .3095 and all you could see at the muzzle was swirl marks for rifling. Long story short, the most accurate bullet in this 03 was a 170 grain Hornady 30-30 bullet. The 30-30 bullet was designed for lower velocities and when fired and kicked in the seat of the pants would fill and seal the bore. I carried this 03A3 for years using it as a rain gun and its accuracy was more than good enough for hunting.
My point about boat tail bullets and over sized bores is you could have a rifle that would key hole boat tail bullets and because of the boat tail design the bullet would not seal the bore. But a flat base bullet could be made to fit and seal the bore and still shoot accurately and this is a common problem many milsurp rifles have.
The OP will need to shoot his rifle with various type bullets and check the results, BUT what is even more important to remember is the damage you can do trying to clean the bore of a rifle that eats copper. And foam bore cleaner doesn't rub the bore the wrong way.
Below is one application of foam bore cleaner and no brushing or scrubbing in a frosted milsurp bore, and 99% of the copper is gone.
I think brians356 made the right choice.
Cleaning doesn't stop a bore from stripping copper. So good cleaning is irrelevant to the issue of copper fouling out. Well, unless you polish a bore, and with that you'll increase copper fouling, and then the only way to recover is to lap, and JBs(not the polish) or fire-lapping are the best options with a finished barrel.
I personally would not have used all 50 FF as I suspect that's more than needed. But he didn't hurt anything.
As mentioned earlier, I use Tubb's FF & TMS conservatively but regularly. It does not hurt a thing. It has not made my guns shoot worse, or affect loads a bit. It's helped.
Tubb's works. The worst I've read of it's use is that it didn't fix the problem. Sometimes it can't.
If your fire lapping actually caused issue, you apparently did it wrong or used the wrong stuff.
.
Cleaning doesn't stop a bore from stripping copper. So good cleaning is irrelevant to the issue of copper fouling out. Well, unless you polish a bore, and with that you'll increase copper fouling, and then the only way to recover is to lap, and JBs(not the polish) or fire-lapping are the best options with a finished barrel.
I personally would not have used all 50 FF as I suspect that's more than needed. But he didn't hurt anything.
As mentioned earlier, I use Tubb's FF & TMS conservatively but regularly. It does not hurt a thing. It has not made my guns shoot worse, or affect loads a bit. It's helped.
Tubb's works. The worst I've read of it's use is that it didn't fix the problem. Sometimes it can't.
If your fire lapping actually caused issue, you apparently did it wrong or used the wrong stuff.
.
With a small LED flashlite I can see my bore condition pretty good. Hard to see the throat area. If the barrel has over a 1000 rounds I think you can see the difference between smooth and textured areas about 1/4" to 3" down the bore. Give it a try. With my 6BR with about 1900 rounds I can see dull spots on top of the lands about a 1/4" in the bore. No alligator hide appearance. A bore scope is the best. Ask at the range if anyone has one.
bigedp51
If you can look at the before and after photos and say fire lapping did nothing to bore diameter then you need your eyes examined. Another post already said he slugged the bore before and after and the bore ended up .0005 larger.
Just by looking at the two photos below of a button rifled bore you can see the tops of the "speed bumps" have been worn down.
The top two photos just show what firing less than half of the Tubb bullets will do.
A little research and understanding "less is more" and lapping a little at a time like the method below and then test the results will be far better than having an oversized bore that cleans nicely but shoots three inch groups.
Brownells - Using JB Bore Paste and Kroil with the VFG Bore Pellets
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaPzrAfemIE
And just shooting the rifle with a new bore will wear down the high spots without sand blasting the bore with an abrasive.
How to Break In A Rifle Barrel
http://www.rifleshootermag.com/2013/09/27/break-rifle-barrel/
Its called taking it slow and easy and a little at a time.
Just by looking at the two photos below of a button rifled bore you can see the tops of the "speed bumps" have been worn down.
The top two photos just show what firing less than half of the Tubb bullets will do.
A little research and understanding "less is more" and lapping a little at a time like the method below and then test the results will be far better than having an oversized bore that cleans nicely but shoots three inch groups.
Brownells - Using JB Bore Paste and Kroil with the VFG Bore Pellets
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaPzrAfemIE
And just shooting the rifle with a new bore will wear down the high spots without sand blasting the bore with an abrasive.
How to Break In A Rifle Barrel
http://www.rifleshootermag.com/2013/09/27/break-rifle-barrel/
Its called taking it slow and easy and a little at a time.
bigedp51, you're overlooking that most of us(here) use bores that are lapped.
And with this, we aren't looking at them raunchy speed bumps pictured in our bores.
What we see in our borescopes is relatively smooth flat surface profile consisting of many shallow parallel scratches(lapping).
When you look down a bore treated with FF you see closer resemblance to what you should have had from the git-go(lapping). This, whether it be a truly fine barrel, or that crap pictured.
Just a suggestion;
When beginning with a 'factory' barrel, anyone would be better off breaking in with FF, so they can take some of the copper fouling out of the mix during their load development. Pre-coating bores and bullets with WS2, Moly, or HBN, also goes a long ways toward eliminating copper as an issue.
I've used FF/TMS with Schneider, Pacnor, Bartlein, Broughton, Border, Krieger, Wilson, Savage, Browning, & NEF barrels. I also monitor my bores(every cleaning) with a Hawkeye.
bigedp51, I don't get the impression that you do.
To me, it just seems like negative notions on your part.
And with this, we aren't looking at them raunchy speed bumps pictured in our bores.
What we see in our borescopes is relatively smooth flat surface profile consisting of many shallow parallel scratches(lapping).
When you look down a bore treated with FF you see closer resemblance to what you should have had from the git-go(lapping). This, whether it be a truly fine barrel, or that crap pictured.
Just a suggestion;
When beginning with a 'factory' barrel, anyone would be better off breaking in with FF, so they can take some of the copper fouling out of the mix during their load development. Pre-coating bores and bullets with WS2, Moly, or HBN, also goes a long ways toward eliminating copper as an issue.
I've used FF/TMS with Schneider, Pacnor, Bartlein, Broughton, Border, Krieger, Wilson, Savage, Browning, & NEF barrels. I also monitor my bores(every cleaning) with a Hawkeye.
bigedp51, I don't get the impression that you do.
To me, it just seems like negative notions on your part.
bigedp51
mikecr
I don't care what you do or what equipment you have or what you think, the OP without slugging the bore or using a borescope fired 50 rounds with Tubbs Final Finish. The OP didn't know what was causing the copper buildup and did not get expert advice from someone with a bore scope. I would NEVER do what the OP did without inspecting the bore and I do not consider saying "screw it" and firing 50 rounds of Tubbs finnal finish a solution without inspecting the bore. And the photos of the before and after I posted tell a story of bore wear no matter how you try and side step what the photos show and what the OP did. On top of this the OP hasn't been back to show us his bug hole groups fired from his oversized bore.
Bottom line and a little Bordello humor....
A party pooper is someone who puts sand in the Vasoline.
And after firing 50 rounds of FF the party is over.
I don't care what you do or what equipment you have or what you think, the OP without slugging the bore or using a borescope fired 50 rounds with Tubbs Final Finish. The OP didn't know what was causing the copper buildup and did not get expert advice from someone with a bore scope. I would NEVER do what the OP did without inspecting the bore and I do not consider saying "screw it" and firing 50 rounds of Tubbs finnal finish a solution without inspecting the bore. And the photos of the before and after I posted tell a story of bore wear no matter how you try and side step what the photos show and what the OP did. On top of this the OP hasn't been back to show us his bug hole groups fired from his oversized bore.
brians356 said:
Bottom line and a little Bordello humor....
A party pooper is someone who puts sand in the Vasoline.
And after firing 50 rounds of FF the party is over.
Ed: That particular 03-A3 always has a steady diet of flat base bullets. In particular the Hornady 150 gr. SP Interlock # 3031.
It easily held MOA with 5 shot groups at 200 yards. After the fire-lapping "groups" were in the 3" to 6" category.
Luckely I found a new, in the wrapper, properly dated ( 3-43) Remington 2 groove replacement.
It easily held MOA with 5 shot groups at 200 yards. After the fire-lapping "groups" were in the 3" to 6" category.
Luckely I found a new, in the wrapper, properly dated ( 3-43) Remington 2 groove replacement.
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