Fouling Beast: Tubb Final Finish?

[Brians356]

I have an original Model 700 Varmint from the impressed fleur-de-lis checkering era (late '70s?) in 6mm Rem which I floated and glass-bedded. The gun shows virtually no external wear, and has shown some accuracy potential shooting a few varmint bullets in the 70 to 87-grain range, using several powders.

However, it copper fouls quickly and heavily. It took a week to get all the copper out of it using many applications of Patch-Out (some soaking for 8 or more hours) interspersed with a few passes of JB Non-embedding Compound, but I finally got it to zero blue on the patch - really clean.

Then I shot 18 Berger 74-gr bullets through it ahead of Superformance (at up to 3800 fps), and it is already heavily copper fouled again. I can see the copper with the naked eye inside the muzzle, and Patch-Out leaves dark blue copper indication on the patches. Many hours of cleaning again lay ahead.

I am now fairly convinced to try the Tubb Final Finish regime on it. I see little to lose at this point, as I will soon wear it (and my elbow) out cleaning it anyway.

Any testimonials or opinions welcome!

Brian

 

[mikecr]

Tubbs FF really does help with these barrels. FF hurts nothing.

 

[jonbearman]

You can certainly give it a try.It worked on one of my personal copper mines.But being a 6mm rem tells me it is going south in a big way.Have you had it scoped yet? If not do it before spending the money on the tubb bullets.

 

[Brians356]

You can certainly give it a try.It worked on one of my personal copper mines.But being a 6mm rem tells me it is going south in a big way.Have you had it scoped yet? If not do it before spending the money on the tubb bullets.

I don't own a scope, nor do I know of one. I guess I will call around to some local gunsmiths, but they might charge as much to scope it as the $35 price of the Tubb kit anyway. I wonder if my local Cabella's store can scope it? They buy a lot of used guns over there.

Brian

 

[jonbearman]

If they charge 35.00 just to take a quick look at the throat and riflings,I would never do business with them again.

 

[expiper]

Brian,,,,you told us how bad it coppers up,,,,but,,,how does it shoot??,,,,I have had bbls that look like a copper water pipe in the bore but shoot VERY well,,,,I woulnt shoot bullets coated with gravel in any bbl,,,,be patient with it ,,,,most of those old Remington varmint rifles were good shooters,,,,Roger

 

[NateHaler]

Brian,,,,you told us how bad it coppers up,,,,but,,,how does it shoot??,,,,I have had bbls that look like a copper water pipe in the bore but shoot VERY well

+1.

You get what you measure. So stop measuring copper fouling, and start measuring group size.

If you're still going to obsess about copper fouling, you might try to find an article from a long-defunct magazine called 'Modern Gun' (circa 1998 maybe?) in which writer Jim Shults discussed a barrel break-in regimen involving boiling water and dish soap, JB bore paste, and beacoup elbow grease. Beware, it could result in a cracked kitchen sink. Ask me how I know...

 

[Brians356]

Brian,,,,you told us how bad it coppers up,,,,but,,,how does it shoot??,,,,I have had bbls that look like a copper water pipe in the bore but shoot VERY well,,,,I woulnt shoot bullets coated with gravel in any bbl,,,,be patient with it ,,,,most of those old Remington varmint rifles were good shooters,,,,Roger

I hear you. It is a decent shooter - easy 3/4 MOA, some groups less than 1/2 MOA. It's a cinch "Minute of Coyote" with not much bother. But I am hoping for better, just ... because. And I will always be wondering if the rough bore is holding me back. By the time I "prove" the bore condition is holding me back from consistent 3/8" cloverleafs, I will have wasted a lot of hard-to-find components and time. I'm inclined to use the Tubb system - in fact I just ordered it from Midway.

This discussion suggests a related topic - "CFE 223" powder. I bought some to try in my 223 first. It might work in 6mm Rem as well, but Hodgdon has not published data for it. They do publish CFE data for 243 Win, but the velocities are pretty low for all bullet weights compared to other powders, so I assume the same will be true for 6mm Rem.

Brian

 

[CatShooter]

If they charge 35.00 just to take a quick look at the throat and riflings, I would never do business with them again.

... and that is why gunsmiths do not want to offer this service. A very well known builder of 1,000 yard rifles (who is a friend), will not do this for the public.

He pays for the tool, and it takes time to take it out and do an inspection (there are no "quick looks"), and the person wants it done for $10.

It's not worth the time to take it out of the box.

 

[Webster]

Did you Chronograph the loads at 3800 fps. That's about 400 fps over loading manual data. I have a chrongraph and I don't think I got over 3400 fps with 75 gr Sierras and 4350 powder. I threw my chronograph data out 4 years ago when I had a 6BR Norma barrel put on it. I bought my Rem 700 BDL Varmint rifle in 1972. I shot it as a 6mm Rem for about 35 years (2 barrels). After about 7000-9000 rounds each barrel the bores looked like alligator hide. I must have had a 4" freebore. It would still shoot a little under 1" groups. The 6mm Rem isn't easy on bores. Maybe it's bore roughness or the high velocity? Maybe the bore is so rough from erosion that it scrubs jacket material off? Eventually you need to buy a new barrel.

Photos of my cross-sectioned Douglas SS barrel 1 & 2" from the throat.

 

[broncman]

All they did was lengthen the throat on my Model 7. Still a copper mine but it shoots very well.

 

[Ropemaker]

Tubb's FF has helped 204's & 223's for myself and brothers rifles. Not that they were copper mines {other than one of the 204's}, but the group sizes were opening up 2x. After a good cleaning, sent 5 or so FF loads down the tube and all was well again.
I also have a 257Rbts on Mauser action 45+yrs old w/Douglas bbl. While cleaning up a 204 copper mine of my brothers, we rigged up homemade "foul out" system to decopper it, [beats scrubbing] so did my 257 also as it showed copper at the muzzle. After several "foul out" decopperings, the 257's bore looked like 40 acres of root plowed mesquite, snagged fuzzies from patches big time. Tubb didn't have any 25 cal. FF bullets, so, made my own and sent abt. 10 rds through the bbl and was back shooting it's normal 1" groups at 200yd. I know my homemade bullets didn't have as fine a grit as Tubb's FF, but it did the job.
Whether it will cure your copper mine, who knows, but the FF certainly won't hurt it, as it worked as stated.

Don

 

[jonbearman]

I have to make one observation,if you have the mentality that it isnt worth your time to scope a bore with the more than likely repeat business from such things you are missing the boat.In my brothers machine shop we do all sorts of little freebies and they always come back and spend money and alot of times we get an engine rebuild job out of it or a tranny. It all works out in the end with being helpful to potential customers. I cant tell you how many times I walked into a local gunshop and they did some little freebie.I always go back because I figure if you do some good it attracts way more business than I dont give a darn if they ever come back.You can charge me to scope it but 35.00 for a few minutes of work is downright being miserable.

 

[Brians356]

Did you Chronograph the loads at 3800 fps. That's about 400 fps over loading manual data.

Yes, clocked the loads. There was only one round over 3800, but many in the mid-3700s. This was Superformance powder, not 4350, and moly-coated bullets. Hodgdon lists max 3637 for 75-grain bullets, so I was < 200 fps over the lawyer's max. Too hot, though, I had a sticky bolt on that 3800+.

 

[jo191145]

I would scope it before shooting the gravel through it. It's not hard to move your lands into the next county with gravel.
Could be this barrel is burned out. Could be it's not broke in. Possible pitting from rust. Do you know it's history?
You can usually feel a severely firecracked throat with the patches.

 

[Brians356]

Do you know it's history?

I know this much: I am the only owner since I bought it from a pawn shop - twenty years after it was manufactured. :-[

 

[lukehalee]

I have used tubbs and I have used dead soft lead. Strongly suggest soft lead at approx 600 fps.

 

[Brians356]

I have used tubbs and I have used dead soft lead. Strongly suggest soft lead at approx 600 fps.

Lead and what else?

 

[Syncrowave]

Have you shot the rifle enough, with enough different handloads, to see whether it will shoot ... before you do a heart transplant?

FF just seems to me like major surgery reserved for when nothing else will work ... the last gasp before rebarrelling.

I'd try and see whether it will shoot better groups with a variety of handloads, and after the barrel is fouled.

If you have such a gun, you could save yourself a lot of sweat and tears (and possibly save your barrel a lot of unnecessary "cleaning wear") by giving it a once-over cleaning, and leaving most of the copper where it belongs...

If it ain't fixed, don't break it!

 

[mikecr]

FF just seems to me like major surgery reserved for when nothing else will work ... the last gasp before rebarrelling.

Wrong. You can use FF any time on any barrel and it will not hurt a thing. It slightly(at worst) leaves a finish similar to lapping in the best of barrels out there.
I use it to break-in custom & factory, 10shts, done. Then every ~200rnds to square/dress up leade just a bit.

leaving most of the copper where it belongs...

There is nothing good or needed about copper in a barrel. Anyone coating barrels and bullets(greatly reducing copper fouling) can attest to this. Anyone whos barrels copper foul out can attest to it as well..