Forster co-ax? ....I am NOT happy.....

[Lazydays]

after using my press for a few years I decided that I need better lock rings as I posted. I never did like the slotted screw heads from the start, and had some Lyman rings laying around, so I tried them. What an improvment! Later on I played around with the adjustable jaws to see if anything could be gained. I ground about three or four thousandths off the face to make them looser, and that helped a little bit. Then a guy that has one told me about setting up the jaws so that they just barely hold the case during extraction, and saw even more difference. I now rarely change my jaw position as I have them so loose that they will handle the .470" and .378 case heads at the sametime (have never had a single stuck case ever).

When using the Lyman rings, I first put pressure under the die, and then tighten the ring. Then if I want to move it I just loosen it enough to move the ring on the die body the amount I want. Most always it stays strait, but if it dosn't I put the die under pressure and retighten the rings. I rarely see a case with .0015" TIR come out of it loaded, and often see them in the .001" area. Best I've done have been in the seven to eight tenth area loaded.
gary

 

[BoydAllen]

The first thing that I would like to know is what sort of lock ring was used with the collet die. In the Forster press, I think it matters.
Secondly, I think that for certain operations not letting the case and die float works better, and this may be one of them. My previous post on this press was not meant to create the impression that this is an inferior product. It is very well made, and for many operations may yield superior results, as has been reported multiple times. It is just that each tool has its particularities, which is why I have so many, including presses. Generally, for collet dies, I use my Rockchucker, because it works well and is more suitably constructed for the stress caused by the method that I use with those dies. For expanding case necks, my Harrell Combo press gives slightly better results, and if I am going to be working at the range with threaded seaters, and/or multiple calibers, that I do not want to loose settings of as I switch, I use my Harrell turret press, for which I have multiple turrets. In my experience, for ordinary sizing, and seating, the Forster press gives excellent results, and is extremely well built.

 

[savageshooter86]

Lazydays- what does having the jaws so loose help with?

 

[amamnn]

Somehow I missed the Lee crimper part of the OP...? Well--Duh!


Assuming that the OP was talking about using this press to load for a factory rifle--that is --a non blueprinted perfectly concentric (the REAL term runout sorta kinda refers to) very roomy chamber, it is easy to see what is happening. The chamber/bolt face/case relationship is not corrected (it may be more accurate to say it is not forced into conformity with the press) when using a Forster or Corbin style press with a free floating setup. Obviously, in such a case, the Coax press indexes on the case as it comes out of the chamber--so-- any malformations caused by a non concentric case formed by (quite likely) a bolt face that is not perpendicular to the axis of the barrel and chamber will remain. This will be particulaly problematic when using a neck die or a collet die like the FCD, since the only index is on the neck. Forster offers a shellholder option for correction this kind of thing.

Forster and Corbin presses, by not "correcting" your cases, actually form them more accurately--if--if--your rifle does not DEform them....for a better explanation of the reasons why--look at this--it's true--
http://www.corbins.com/csp-1.htm

-- I have a Rockchucker in my attic that could be the poster child for what is wrong with C and O presses--except that it is too old--maybe a poster grandpa or something


As far as for not working with 220 Russian for 6ppc use I cannot say that my co-ax has ever given me a problem--nor in forming 30BR from 6BR Norma cases. I use the K&M mandrel and reamer system--maybe that is the difference? The only difference I can think of was that when forming for the 6PPC I went right to the press with the cases as they came from Lapua. Maybe I just got a lot of concentric cases or maybe I did not care as I was going to fire form them twice before using them anyway. These days I FF the 6BR cases as 6BR before I form 30 BR from them..in a concentric chamber...........BTW I checked all my Forster lock rings after reading this post and they were all parallel as far as my equipment could measure--I cannot say the same for the few Redding rings I use and the only Lee rings I use are for handgun dies, so I did not bother.

 

[lrgoodger]

The first thing that I would like to know is what sort of lock ring was used with the collet die. In the Forster press, I think it matters.
Secondly, I think that for certain operations not letting the case and die float works better, and this may be one of them. My previous post on this press was not meant to create the impression that this is an inferior product. It is very well made, and for many operations may yield superior results, as has been reported multiple times. It is just that each tool has its particularities, which is why I have so many, including presses. Generally, for collet dies, I use my Rockchucker, because it works well and is more suitably constructed for the stress caused by the method that I use with those dies. For expanding case necks, my Harrell Combo press gives slightly better results, and if I am going to be working at the range with threaded seaters, and/or multiple calibers, that I do not want to loose settings of as I switch, I use my Harrell turret press, for which I have multiple turrets. In my experience, for ordinary sizing, and seating, the Forster press gives excellent results, and is extremely well built.

I'm using the rings that came with the Forster Coax, of course. I can see where the split ring might contribute a little to the canting of the die when the ram comes up. If there is a better ring (which other posters seem to indicate), then I need to know that by all means.

I didn't try eliminating the float. You might be right about that. I assume you would do that by slipping the correct thickness shim between the ring and the press.

I too like the press. I'm just in the growing pains stage of finding out what it does well and what it does not. Any info I can glean from this readership will shorten those pains, hopefully.

 

[BoydAllen]

What I was referring to was everything about the design of the press that lets the case center itself in a die that is not a collet die, including the lack of positive location of the back end of the case before it is pressed into a die. If a case is set down off center, I am not sure that it will enter the die as centered as it would be with a normal shell holder, and for a collet die this may not be the ideal situation. I see that they make a shell holder adapter for the press. I have not tried one.

 

[Lazydays]

Lazydays- what does having the jaws so loose help with?

for me it just seems to help the case find it's own center a little better. Maybe I'm wrong but I do think it helped in my case. Setting the jaws up so loose for extraction was just something I tried after a couple guys told me they were doing it that way. When I forst started using the Co-Ax I did have a small problem with one of the sliding jaws not closing all the way every once in awhile. I stoned the faces looking for a burr or a bump, but didn't see any. Then I made a .003" plastic shim to sorta make everything a tad looser. That helped a bunch. So later I simply made the jaws a little thinner, and left out the shim stock. Whenever I have the jaw plates removed from the press, I wipe that area down with a hard Arkansas stone. If I feel a bump, I go over it with a India slip stone very lightly with some light oil on the surface. I've found a bump on the surface more than once.

wether what I'm doing is correct or not, I can't say. But it worked for me
gary

 

[Lazydays]

Somehow I missed the Lee crimper part of the OP...? Well--Duh!


Assuming that the OP was talking about using this press to load for a factory rifle--that is --a non blueprinted perfectly concentric (the REAL term runout sorta kinda refers to) very roomy chamber, it is easy to see what is happening. The chamber/bolt face/case relationship is not corrected (it may be more accurate to say it is not forced into conformity with the press) when using a Forster or Corbin style press with a free floating setup. Obviously, in such a case, the Coax press indexes on the case as it comes out of the chamber--so-- any malformations caused by a non concentric case formed by (quite likely) a bolt face that is not perpendicular to the axis of the barrel and chamber will remain. This will be particulaly problematic when using a neck die or a collet die like the FCD, since the only index is on the neck. Forster offers a shellholder option for correction this kind of thing.

Forster and Corbin presses, by not "correcting" your cases, actually form them more accurately--if--if--your rifle does not DEform them....for a better explanation of the reasons why--look at this--it's true--
http://www.corbins.com/csp-1.htm

-- I have a Rockchucker in my attic that could be the poster child for what is wrong with C and O presses--except that it is too old--maybe a poster grandpa or something


As far as for not working with 220 Russian for 6ppc use I cannot say that my co-ax has ever given me a problem--nor in forming 30BR from 6BR Norma cases. I use the K&M mandrel and reamer system--maybe that is the difference? The only difference I can think of was that when forming for the 6PPC I went right to the press with the cases as they came from Lapua. Maybe I just got a lot of concentric cases or maybe I did not care as I was going to fire form them twice before using them anyway. These days I FF the 6BR cases as 6BR before I form 30 BR from them..in a concentric chamber...........BTW I checked all my Forster lock rings after reading this post and they were all parallel as far as my equipment could measure--I cannot say the same for the few Redding rings I use and the only Lee rings I use are for handgun dies, so I did not bother.

excellent post sir!

one thing that liked to drove me nuts with my Co-Ax was with a certain Remington .223 I own. I fought it and fought it, till I finally took a serious look at the once fired cases that had not gone thru the press. Every one of them had a hicky on the case rim, Not a lot, but just a few thousandths. I took about a dozen cases and wiped them on an India stone to clean this up. Bingo! I'm now doing cases well under .0007" TIR. I eventually traced it back to the extractor on the bolt, and replaced it with an M16 extractor. So your right in garbage in garbage out!
glt

 

[savagedasher]

I have two and both are great its not the press it the dies. I just tested mine the only way it work right I had to put the other shell holder in that was fixed .The problem is the case isn't being held straight when the Collette start crimping .I had fair success when I rotated it 3 times while seizing. Try some straight wall dies before you condemn the press

 

[lrgoodger]

This all started when I was loading neck turned Lapua 6BR cases. Runout has always been very low on cases that were neck sized only with the Lee collet die.

I'm pleased to report that firing them at the match Sunday straightened them back out. The fired necks are measuring .0002 - 3 runout.

I studied this issue for a couple of hours last night. I discovered that that by carefully controlling the depth of the Lee die, you can actually size the neck to any dimension between fully fired and fully sized against the mandrel. I tediously sized to different dimensions and then measured for runout. Runout barely changed until the inside of the case neck hit the mandrel and the necks were fully sized. That indicates that savagedasher is right, it is the die and not the press, although results in the Coax are very dependent on how you set it up.

I started analyzing the die and asked myself why there was a rubber ring under the die cap. I read the instruction sheet thorughly. No mention of the ring or what it is for. My guess is it is supposed to help with centering in the same manner as the rubber ring on the Lee lock rings. I experimented with it. Leaving the cap gently seated seemed to help in the Coax press. Best results were obtained in the Lee press with both the lock ring and the die cap screwed down tight, and that result was slightly better than the Coax result.

Both results are just under .001" on the runout gauge. I believe actual runout is only half the figure on the gauge, so there is not enough to be concerned about on either press when they are set up correctly.

I also noticed that the die retaining ball on the Coax was causing the die to always tip to the left as the ram comes up. I removed the ball to confirm that was what was causing the tipping, but it had no effect on runout, so I put the ball back in.

This has been an eye opening experience, but I have it under control now. Thanks to everyone who provided input.

For those interested in the partial neck sizing with the Lee collet die issue, the theory is that if you leave a bit of the base of the neck un-sized, the cartridge will center better in the chamber. That makes sense to me so I have always partial neck sized after I figured out how to do it with the Lee. You have to make a washer that will slip down over the case and let the die seat against that instead of the top of the shellholder. The thickness of the washer is the amount of neck that will remain un-sized. It works the same way on the Coax press except that you have to make sure the outside diameter of the washer will fit easily into the cavity on the plate above the shellholder jaws.

I'm anxiously awaiting the day that Lee starts accepting custom neck sizer orders again. I've been FLS sizing my 30BR cases with a Redding bushing die because I've been unable to get a collet die for them. Runout on those is considerably more than what I get on the 6BRs with the collet die.

 

[savageshooter86]

I discovered that that by carefully controlling the depth of the Lee die, you can actually size the neck to any dimension between fully fired and fully sized against the mandrel. I tediously sized to different dimensions

How consistent were the necks when sizing to not fully touch the necks to the mandrel? A shooting buddy suggested I try that method with my old single stage press but I could never get the hang of it

 

[amamnn]

I love when these kinds of threads get complicated--it makes me want to think about things and hopefully chase Mr. Alzheimer away for another week or so....

Thinking about case forming, be it 6ppc from 220 russian or just forming 6BR norma or--the one giving me lots to think about lately--and again-- 30 BR from 6BR--I don't think I ever looked at concentricity before I had 2 FF sessions with any of those cases. All those were FF in chambers as concentric as the smith could make them and formed with dies matched to chambers and etc. etc. So, the chambers were forming the brass concentrically and when I did look at the cases, they had already been formed--or reformed if you will --concentrically and the free floating base was an advantage in resizing the cases--as opposed to a C or O captive base press which may or may not have been drilled concentrically, or off axis like mine was, to some degree. Only after all that do/did I use the cases for serious endeavor.

I just cannot support the idea that a collet like the one used in the Lee neck die and FCD can give a precise, exact and repeatable neck tension suitable for forming cases to be used in competition or long range varmint, etc.-- When you use a bushing sized to .328" with a 30BR cartridge case wall of .010", you know you get .328" outside diameter when you drop a .308" bullet in it ----and .003" neck tension in the same OD when you use the .325" bushing. Where is your collet then? and what is the neck tension of 50 rounds? 100?

Call me new/old fashioned, but I like to be sure all the rounds are as exactly alike as I can make the and a collet in this case--pun intended--just does not do the job as far as I can see.---convince me otherwise if you can--I have an open mind and lots of time to experiment--oh-- and a bunch of Lee collet neck and crimp dies in the attic----------BTW "not fully touch" is inexact by anyone's standards...........no wonder you never got the hang of it...........

 

[BoydAllen]

Fortunately we do not have to convince anyone to use anything, but rather report our experiences. I have never thought of collet dies for tight neck chambers, but rather as a very good, possibly the best for unturned necks, in factory chambers. Also, not all varmint shooting is done at 600 yards, with rifles that were built like competition rifles. All of my varmint rifles have factory barrels, and do their jobs very well. It is for those that I load with collet dies, and I have made comparisons with other methods. The reason that I care about how straight cases are after expanding is that for my applications, I need to make a cut on the shoulder, and if cases are too crooked, that cut is uneven, and also it takes more firings to fully straighten cases, which is a wast of barrel steel and bullets. Using my preferred method, cases are very straight after fire forming, and I like that, which is all the reason that I need. ;D

 

[amamnn]

Okay, now Mr. Alzheimer looms and I am confused. An expander in a collet die? A second sizing after a FL pass with expander installed? And I still see no advantage in collet vs. bushing especially since we can have FL dies with bushings.. Maybe a little more clarification. I am interested as to how you are working those cases, since I have a couple applications similar to what you mentioned...............

 

[BoydAllen]

The expanding references were not to sizing but expanding up cases to make such things as 6PPCs and .30 BRs. (answering comments by a previous poster) The advantage of the collet dies seems to be that when a lot of neck reduction needs to be done, such as with a typical factory chamber, bushings may not work as well by actual test. For those that are looking to make straight ammo with unturned necks, for factory chambers, using a two step sizing process with a collet die followed by a body die, set for proper shoulder bump, can yield superior results. Of course one varies neck tension by using different diameter mandrels, and I would suggest a better seater than the Lee.

 

[jelrod1]

I have been using the method of sizing Boyd is describing for a while now and have never had cases come out better with any other method. Using Lapua no turn brass in a .342 neck .308. After firing I use the collet die first on the neck. Checking run out there is never anymore introduced. After that I use a redding body die to push the shoulder back to a once fired state. Run out on finish cases is virtually non existent.

I used to use a redding bushing sizer and had all kinds of unexplained run out. My best cases ended up being when I used a .339 bushing with a neck die and then a .336 as another pass with the FL the same time I pushed the shoulder. I think sizing the neck in two steps is what helped. None of it ever equalled using the collet followed by the body though. Not only is it consistent, it makes it look easy.

 

[lrgoodger]

I discovered that that by carefully controlling the depth of the Lee die, you can actually size the neck to any dimension between fully fired and fully sized against the mandrel. I tediously sized to different dimensions

How consistent were the necks when sizing to not fully touch the necks to the mandrel? A shooting buddy suggested I try that method with my old single stage press but I could never get the hang of it

They were very consistent in terms of runout, but I think by doing it that way you would sacrifice neck tension consistency. With a bushing neck sizer or squeezing against the Lee mandrel every time, you would get a neck size governed by the bushing or the mandrel, which are very concrete dimensions. If you try to neck size with die depth in the press, you are now at the mercy of press tolerances and the accuracy of your positioning of the die, which would likely not be very repeatable session to session. I don't think I want to go there.

 

[savageshooter86]

Ok I thought you meant you sized that way for neck tension. But I think you did it to see what that did to runout.

I an about to get a Whidden bushing FL die to use with the CoAx

 

[BoydAllen]

You can have the neck tension that you want with a collet die. You just need the appropriate mandrel, just like you use different bushings for a bushing die. The combination of the collet and body gives you the same sort of complete case sizing as a bushing FL die and if your chamber is factory, and your brass unturned is likely to yield straighter brass....than anyone's bushing FL die. That's what it is all about.

 

[savageshooter86]

Yep Boyd. That is the method I did use when I was using the die. Now that I switched to Lapua brass and turned the necks and bow have the CoAx press