Forster co-ax? ....I am NOT happy.....

[lrgoodger]

You can have the neck tension that you want with a collet die. You just need the appropriate mandrel, just like you use different bushings for a bushing die. The combination of the collet and body gives you the same sort of complete case sizing as a bushing FL die and if your chamber is factory, and your brass unturned is likely to yield straighter brass....than anyone's bushing FL die. That's what it is all about.

Right. I understand that. But we were talking about controlling the degree of neck sizing by only partially closing the collet (short of the mandrel). It CAN be done, but I don't think it's advisable to try and control tension that way because of repeatability issues. Savageshooter86 was right, I was doing it a little at a time to see where the runout was going wrong.

For example, my fired cases measure .269. After normally Lee collet sizing, they measure .266. By controlling the depth of the collet die in the press, I was able to get .268 (runout was still perfect), .267 (runout was still perfect), a soft .266 (where the neck was just touching the mandrel - runout was still perfect) and finally a hard .266 where the neck was pressed firmly against the mandrel and some runout was induced (with the coax, with the amount of runout depended on how tight the die cap was). I even removed the mandrel and repeated the process for each size down to .266. It would have went smaller without the mandrel, of course, but that was not what I was after.

 

[BoydAllen]

Have you done a test with something like a Rockchucker? It could be a press design thing.

 

[lrgoodger]

As you have already pointed out, some presses are better suited for certain tasks. Runout was always a no brainer in the Lee press with the collet die. The Lee classis cast is pretty much the same as a rockchucker. In the Coax, I can now get acceptable results but I have to pay strict attention to how it is set up.

 

[BoydAllen]

Got it. I would point out that my Rockchucker has taken a lot of operator error caused abuse over the years, and nothing has ever broken, so while they may look similar, if your Lee broke, they are different in that respect. Probably 25 or more years back, when my reloading was more in the knuckle dragging stage, I mushroomed the bottom of a 30-30 collet toggling the press, and the die still worked. Seeing that, I developed a much more sensitive approach to setting up those dies, and have had no more problems.

 

[lrgoodger]

Actually it was not the Lee classic cast that broke on me. That one is pretty strong (like the rockchucker), but I didn't get it until after I broke the turret press. I probably should never have done it in the first place, but I was using a Lee classic turret press for neck sizing and shoulder bumping. Both those operations take considerable pressure. I broke two of the aluminum turrets and the last time I broke the steel ring that holds the turret. Lee replaced both immediately, but I quit using it for that since it obviously will not stand up to repeated operations of that sort. I also pushed the threads out of one cap on the collet die. That is one reason I am working so hard to get this to work on the coax. Having the collet closure force limited by a fixed amount of cam-over should keep me from breaking things. It's a tedious setup, but it's working. You have to screw the die down a bit at a time and measure how much the neck gets sized over and over until you just have enough pressure to fully do the job.

 

[BoydAllen]

I set up collet dies so that I only feel a very slight toggling...almost none, and rely on changes in mandrel size to vary neck tension. With that approach there is not nearly as much strain on the press and dies. It sounds to me like you were over toggling by quite a bit. As soon as I can feel any at all, I quit adjusting the die. Another thing, I have a friend that uses the factory method that has the die well below where the press can be toggled relying on handle pressure, and he gets very good results, better after he started annealing. His Savage varmint rifles, one with a custom chambered Shilen drop in barrel, shoot very well. The lower the ram stops, the less leverage the press has. There is good reason for the factory not to want reloaders to toggle their presses, my own mistakes being a prime example. Bottom line, you don't have to toggle, or use a torque wrench on the handle to get excellent results. As long as the neck is solidly against the mandrel, slight variations in pressure don't seem to matter.

 

[savageshooter86]

what neck size have you two gotten with a 308 collet die when it is properly touching the std size mandrel? Just curious. 0.334"?

 

[jelrod1]

what neck size have you two gotten with a 308 collet die when it is properly touching the std size mandrel? Just curious. 0.334"?

Mine, with Lapua brass yields .336

 

[lrgoodger]

what neck size have you two gotten with a 308 collet die when it is properly touching the std size mandrel? Just curious. 0.334"?

That depends on how thin one has the neck turned to. I turn necks for everything. My off the shelf 308 collet die mandrel measures .3052, so it would be that plus 2x neck thickness before seating the bullet. It would be 308 plus 2x neck thickness for the loaded round.

Boyd,

The Lee classic turret press I was using doesn't really cam over like some of the others. I had it adjusted to stop on the collet die well above that point as you describe, and as the instructions on the die say to do (2 full turns below the shell holder) so you can feel the pressure and to apply at least 25 lbs of force. That's what I was doing, but I guess my estimate of 25 lbs. must have been a good bit low. That's why I'm being so careful about setting it up in the coax. Like I said, I'm stopping in the coax when the collet has just closed enough to fully size the neck. It's working well so far and I know I'm applying a lot less pressure than I was on the turret press.

 

[Phil3]

Just for information, I set up a test indicator on the Co-Ax when full length resizing a case, and there is no cam-over. Perhaps there might be if a die was really screwed down, but I did not do that.

Phil

 

[amamnn]

I want to make sure I have this straight. After sizing with a standard FL die of whatever brand, you feel that the expander has pulled the neck out of shape somehow, even assuming the case neck was lubed properly and the press is not out of alignment, having actually checked for that and having checked the case alignment before and after sizing? Then, using the same "C" or "O" press and a collet neck die, you correct the concentricity of the case by "feeling" the case/collet/mandrel action as you work the press? This being done in something like a .30-06 to be shot in a 1903 old soldier's 200 yard match--not a varmint or BR app?

To return to the original Q of the thread as I remember it, I want to be sure we are talking about the same thing here, since I have done just that and also .30-30 loading on the Co-ax and have had no alignment problems, in that my FL sizing was not bent to begin with, whereas the old Rockchucker (which made such bent ammo to get me interested in the Co-ax in the first place) was a disaster--that being said--I can only speak about my RC and not ALL RCs..............These days I load those two cartriges and my .556 for the AR on a Lee classic turret --also with no problems and very good downrange results.

So---all that being said---did the OP get his Q answered? Flipping the co-ax jaws over to use shellholders or..........?

 

[BoydAllen]

It is pretty simple. Just about anyone who has spent much time with a good concentricity gauge knows what the results of using the various types of dies are. Secondly, for certain applications, differences in concentricity may be hard to see on the target. Thirdly, if I am using a standard, unhoned, not custom, one piece die, it is because, for that application, I think that the results will be good enough for what I am trying to accomplish. If I am serious about producing straighter ammo, I spend the money and go another way, but for sure, I never use a collet die to fix an already sized case. I only use them on fired cases, typically for varmint rifles that I expect to shoot reliably well under 1/2". There have factory barrels and I use unturned necks. These days, most of my shooting is at the range, with either one of a couple of benchrest rifles chambered in 6PPC. They have chambers with necks that measure .262, and I shoot brass that has turned necks, and load with custom dies, that keep things pleasingly straight.

 

[lrgoodger]

I want to make sure I have this straight. After sizing with a standard FL die of whatever brand, you feel that the expander has pulled the neck out of shape somehow, even assuming the case neck was lubed properly and the press is not out of alignment, having actually checked for that and having checked the case alignment before and after sizing? Then, using the same "C" or "O" press and a collet neck die, you correct the concentricity of the case by "feeling" the case/collet/mandrel action as you work the press? This being done in something like a .30-06 to be shot in a 1903 old soldier's 200 yard match--not a varmint or BR app?

To return to the original Q of the thread as I remember it, I want to be sure we are talking about the same thing here, since I have done just that and also .30-30 loading on the Co-ax and have had no alignment problems, in that my FL sizing was not bent to begin with, whereas the old Rockchucker (which made such bent ammo to get me interested in the Co-ax in the first place) was a disaster--that being said--I can only speak about my RC and not ALL RCs..............These days I load those two cartriges and my .556 for the AR on a Lee classic turret --also with no problems and very good downrange results.

So---all that being said---did the OP get his Q answered? Flipping the co-ax jaws over to use shellholders or..........?

You should go back and carefully re-read this thread. The answers to all of those questions are in there. I never anywhere said anything about an expander. The Lee collet die (and its performance on the coax press), which is what we have been discussing, does not have one. And yes, I answered my own question by experimentation, posting my findings as I went.