Flyer Question

[jsthntn247]

Guys could you critique my reloading set up and help me to possibly get rid of these flyers that I keep getting. This is the process I go through when reloading for a match. I have tried a collet die with different mandrels and a fl whidden bushing die with varying bushings to find the load that shoots best in my gun but no matter what I do I am still getting 2-3 bullets that are waay off from the rest of the group in a 20 shot string. The shots feel just as good as the others but the bullet just goes to another place.

Gun is a Stiller Predator action with 30" Bartlein barrel pillar bedded into a custom stock.
Reamer used was a new Ptg palma with .339 neck throated for 185 Bergers
Brass is Lapua and was neck turned to .014 per side yielding a loaded round neck of .3355
After brass is fired I do these steps

Tumble brass for 3 hours
Run brass through an ultrasonic cleaner with water to remove tumbling media dust
Anneal brass with drill and socket with a second counter so each one is in flame same amount of time: Used 750 tempilaq until it just melted for time in flame
Fl resize brass with Whidden bushing die and .335 bushing (this bushing yields best groups)
Trim brass on Forster trimmer with 3 way cutter
Lightly chamfer by hand with 22 degree chamfer tool and clean primer pockets
Load bullets and check each one with ogive comparater

For whatever reason, I can't seem to get the neck tension equal on all rounds. Some rounds seat with more force than others and will be several thousandths longer when measured to ogive. I group those seperatly and seat them deeper to desired depth. I have added lemi shine and dawn in the ultrasonic cleaner to get the brass spotless on the inside and still have the same issue of different seating pressure. Ive checked the loaded rounds several times and don't have any more than .002 runout. Any help would be greatly appreciated, because I know I am going to mess up a few times during a match and if I have added misses from my equipment also, I'm never going to be able to compete. This group was fired yesterday afternoon at 300 yards while practicing. I traced a reduced 300 yard f class target on paper for the rings. Notice the flier high and left that is 2" away from the other 12 shots which came on shot 9 with no wind change. Shot felt just as good as any of the others.

 

[jonbearman]

CHECK YOUR SCOPE MOUNTING BLOCK OR BLOCKS TO MAKE SURE THE SCREWS DONT BOTTOM OUT BEFORE THEY DRAW THE MOUNT DOWN TIGHT. sHORTEN SCREWS BY FILING THE LENGTH. hAVE YOU DONE A LADDER TEST? SEATING DEPTH TEST. Sorry caps on. What loads and seating depth are you trying. What bullets?

 

[jsthntn247]

CHECK YOUR SCOPE MOUNTING BLOCK OR BLOCKS TO MAKE SURE THE SCREWS DONT BOTTOM OUT BEFORE THEY DRAW THE MOUNT DOWN TIGHT. sHORTEN SCREWS BY FILING THE LENGTH. hAVE YOU DONE A LADDER TEST? SEATING DEPTH TEST. Sorry caps on. What loads and seating depth are you trying. What bullets?

Yes this is a picture of the ladder test at 300 yards. I then shot 5 shot groups at 300 yards from groups 4-8. 6 and 7 had the some point of impact and no vertical change on the target so I loaded 43.6 at different seating depths from a .010 jam to .040 jump and found .015 and .020 off lands shot exactly they same so I am using .017 as my seating depth. I then loaded at 43.6 and .017 off lands and used different bushings to vary my neck tension and found the .335 bushing was best. This is with 185 juggernauts and Varget.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

Left or right handed shooter? The high left looks very much like a gun handling mistake. Worse yet, it isn't going to be a big thing, instead, it is going to be a small thing that causes that problem. For example, a right handed shooter can cause that by putting a little (more) cheek into the stock.

 

[jsthntn247]

Left or right handed shooter? The high left looks very much like a gun handling mistake. Worse yet, it isn't going to be a big thing, instead, it is going to be a small thing that causes that problem. For example, a right handed shooter can cause that by putting a little (more) cheek into the stock.

Right hand shooter. Can't be me, must be something else ;D

 

[jsthntn247]

They have all been neck turned. I am almost positive it's a neck tension issue. What causes different seating pressure on brass that has been turned and annealed? I can freshly anneal the brass and run it on my k&n mandrel, some go on easy and others take more force. Seems some of the brass is harder than others.

 

[jr600yd]

Set the barrel back or re-barrel. Your reloading procedure is excellent.

 

[rminut]

Left or right handed shooter? The high left looks very much like a gun handling mistake. Worse yet, it isn't going to be a big thing, instead, it is going to be a small thing that causes that problem. For example, a right handed shooter can cause that by putting a little (more) cheek into the stock.

follow what this guy said. there is no way neck tension would cause a flyer like that at 300. unless it's the shooters neck tension. notice there is a flyer in the opposite corner too, just not as wide.

shooter tension, not brass tension.

 

[LHSmith]

Either leave the carbon in the necks --don't clean the inside other than 1 pass thru with a nylon neck brush....or use graphite in the necks. Clean brass inside necks is bad for consistent NT, freshly annealed brass is worse. You can actually feel how "sticky" the outside of the case gets after annealing.

 

[22BRGUY]

For whatever reason, I can't seem to get the neck tension equal on all rounds.

In my opinion, consistent neck tension is very important, that will cause fliers and larger ES. Especially with bushing dies, we need very uniform neck walls to compliment the use of a bushing (reduction type die).
Do you neck-turn or segregate by neck wall thickness? Either could improve your seating consistency if you aren't.

Donovan

Either leave the carbon in the necks --don't clean the inside other than 1 pass thru with a nylon neck brush....or use graphite in the necks. Clean brass inside necks is bad for consistent NT, freshly annealed brass is worse. You can actually feel how "sticky" the outside of the case gets after annealing.

My own experience is that leaving the carbon in the necks produces better groups. It's obvious that you are a stickler for clean brass and annealing and just wonder if this might be hurting on the neck tension issue. Also, in looking at the second target, I might try a load of 43.0 gr for 5 and just look at the vertical only, then go back and play with the seating depth to tighten up the horizontal. JMHO

 

[Tim Singleton]

Either leave the carbon in the necks --don't clean the inside other than 1 pass thru with a nylon neck brush....or use graphite in the necks. Clean brass inside necks is bad for consistent NT, freshly annealed brass is worse. You can actually feel how "sticky" the outside of the case gets after annealing.

same thoughts here
try leaving all the tumbling cleaning steps out of the process one time

 

[jsthntn247]

I'm going to leave the ultrasonic step out on this next batch and see if it helps. 22br I shot 43.1 yesterday also, didn't shoot as good. I also failed to mention that I don't have any fliers and groups are 1/2 the size with new brass. Tension seem very consistent when new also, so I know its something I'm doing in my reloading steps. I might need to anneal longer.

 

[Tim Singleton]

might even lay off the annealing on a set of new brass for a few loadings

 

[brxbrad]

Based on the results on the target, it looks to me you dont have a consistant load. Verticle usually results with the wrong powder or amount of powder. Chronograph your loads and find the most consistant load. Look for low ES and SD. Low ES and SD gets rid of verticle. Speed doesnt always make a bullet accurate. The right powder, amount of powder, and tuning the bullet to the correct distance from the lands makes your groups small with little verticle.

I tested 4350 and 4831sc in my 284win accross the cronograph with the bullet touching the lands and didnt use a target. Only the chronograph. I looked for the best speed, pressure signs and the lowest SD and ES. I took my gun to a 600yd match without shooting groups or changing distance from the lands. Long story short, it shot a 199, 196, and 195 and held the water line. I have just recently finished my load development and ended up .015 off the lands and 1/4 MOA groups.

Maybe your powder measure isnt consistant..........Test it with a chronogrpah......

 

[dkhunt14]

What scope are you using? What scale are you using?

 

[22BRGUY]

Might suggest looking at the crown also with a bright light and big magnifying glass if you haven't already.

 

[savagedasher]

Try a good bedding job. Larry

 

[300 RUM]

How old is you brass and have they been annealed properly? Honestly those kind of flyers are (in my opinion) shooter error or case issues like unmatched brass conditions, neck tension, need annealing, proper chamfer (no nicks, smooth inside and out)...The older my brass gets the more flyers I get, I have to be much much more aware of brass condition.

As the shooter we often do not want to admit even to our selves that we were at fault. many times I can shoot 20 rnds and have 17 touching at 200-300 yards yet have 2-3 flyers like your showing .

Brass prep/loading is more important then any thing, WHY because it takes the mechanical error out of the equation.The more prep the better

Now your loading Technics are fine except for the annealing process you do... using a drill does the trick but very far from uniform very far

Also when did this flyer crap start i.e. was it happening with new brass or once fired, twice fired after you annealed etc.?

 

[Barlow]

Make sure your scope focus ring is tight. Barlow

 

[jim_k]

Cull the brass that has comparatively tighter neck tension feel when seating.
Jim