flame temp list?

[taliv]

i searched but didn't have any luck

anyone know of a relative propellant flame temp list similar to the relative burn rate charts?


in absence of a complete list, does anyone know about the IMR enduron flame temps? or where i would go to ask? (obviously, the manufacturer, but would they give me an honest answer?)

 

[CatShooter]

Flame temperature is dependant on pressure, and other factors, and is not predictable to any meaningful level.

 

[bigedp51]

At 43,000 cup the peak flame temperature is starting to reach the melting of modern barrel steels.

At a given pressure there is less the 100 degrees difference between double base ball powders and single base powders.

And CatShooter is correct in his above statement, meaning the higher the chamber pressure the hotter the peak flame temp.

And the peak flame temperature of bovine scat has yet to be determined.

 

[mikecr]

If by 'flame temp' you mean burn temp, the answer is a local abstract. The same applies to local pressure, burn rate, and area for given heat.
If you mean caloric heat potential per unit of specific powder mass, this can be determined with a calorimetric bomb.
QuickLoad provides this information for many popular powders,, -not Enduron.

The information might be known by IMR.

 

[taliv]

Flame temperature is dependant on pressure, and other factors, and is not predictable to any meaningful level.

i don't know but offhand, i would say it's the other way around, no? I mean, since i'm burning something to create pressure, instead of squeezing something to create temp? so both the temp and burn rate would seem relevant and together would be used to calc peak pressure.


biged, i have heard that repeated a few times on the internet but what little data i've seen seems to contradict it. i'm trying to figure out if it is an old wives' tale or not. i'm leaning towards "is"

thanks mike, someone on another forum posted a list of the index from quickload.

 

[gaboon]

If the above is true. That temp is higher at higher pressures the list is wrong. Just looking at 2 powders imr 4064 is cooler than imr 4895 when 4064 has a higher pressures. Info off imr website.

 

[CatShooter]

Flame temperature is dependant on pressure, and other factors, and is not predictable to any meaningful level.

i don't know but offhand, i would say it's the other way around, no?

No...

 

[bigedp51]

biged, i have heard that repeated a few times on the internet but what little data i've seen seems to contradict it. i'm trying to figure out if it is an old wives' tale or not. i'm leaning towards "is"

Well if you have seen such little data then why comment at all with so little knowledge? :

 

[mikecr]

If the above is true. That temp is higher at higher pressures the list is wrong. Just looking at 2 powders imr 4064 is cooler than imr 4895 when 4064 has a higher pressures. Info off imr website.

The list isn't wrong, 4064 is faster burning than 4895.
While higher pressures affect powder burn rate, and higher pressures also increase temps, powder heat potential, as produced, seems independent of burn rate, and to resultant local pressures.
That is, powder makers produced the burn rate they did -with heat output wherever it happened to end up.

N133 For example, magic stuff, fast enough to produce extreme pressure loads in tiny 6PPCs, yet one of the coolest of powders.
IMO, powder heat is only a factor in barrel life(a big factor).

 

[Nvreloader]

QL has a couple of heat index's for all the powders/loads etc,

I made up the following index's from QL.

1. Burning Rate, (fast to slowest)
2. Heat of explosions, (hot to coldest)
2. Ratio of heat to load volume, (hot to coldest)

I find this type info of interest to me.

I ask the forum boss a question about posting this info for the members,
but never received a reply back, if it was OK to post it..

Tia,
Don

 

[dcali]

I think what you're after is more precisely called "adiabatic flame temperature", which is just a property of the propellant, not to be confused with the actual temperature of the gas during combustion. I don't know if that's what QuickLOAD includes in their database, as I haven't really looked into it. But it might be.

Unfortunately, I don't know of any list besides what's in quickLOAD. Do post a link if you find one, though - I'd be interested in seeing it.

Edit: It looks like that list from QuickLOAD is actually the "heat of explosion" which is another thing entirely.

 

[bigedp51]

Nvreloader

The output of Quickload is not copyrighted, nor is posting anything using Microsoft Word or Excel etc. etc..

The software is copyrighted and you are not allowed to copy this software and sell it.

What I input into Quickload and its output belongs to me.

Any output data of Quickload is not copyrighted.

Just as the output data of Excell is not copyrighted.

All the BS about Quickload was started by NECO who only sells Quickload for the German company that has the copyright. Neco does this to sell more copies of Quickload and make more money for every copy they sell.

On top of this if you took the time to read the startup screen for Quickload all you will see is a warning that you are not allowed to copy and sell Quickload under copyright laws.

 

[gaboon]

Flame temperature is dependant on pressure, and other factors, and is not predictable to any meaningful level.

i don't know but offhand, i would say it's the other way around, no? I mean, since i'm burning something to create pressure, instead of squeezing something to create temp? so both the temp and burn rate would seem relevant and together would be used to calc peak pressure.


biged, i have heard that repeated a few times on the internet but what little data i've seen seems to contradict it. i'm trying to figure out if it is an old wives' tale or not. i'm leaning towards "is"

thanks mike, someone on another forum posted a list of the index from quickload.

If the above is true. That temp is higher at higher pressures the list is wrong. Just looking at 2 powders imr 4064 is cooler than imr 4895 when 4064 has a higher pressures. Info off imr website.

The list isn't wrong, 4064 is faster burning than 4895.
While higher pressures affect powder burn rate, and higher pressures also increase temps, powder heat potential, as produced, seems independent of burn rate, and to resultant local pressures.
That is, powder makers produced the burn rate they did -with heat output wherever it happened to end up.

N133 For example, magic stuff, fast enough to produce extreme pressure loads in tiny 6PPCs, yet one of the coolest of powders.
IMO, powder heat is only a factor in barrel life(a big factor).

The op is asking about flame temp. If the list was based off the same pressures the list would be correct. But if you took the powders at different pressures the temps will be different.

 

[mikecr]

They probably measured heat at 14.7psi.
Seems as good as any other standard for isolating this single attribute.

Pressure is a matter of containment area and timing(burn rate, bullet starting pressure, etc.). Can't imagine a standard there -for powder.

 

[taliv]

thanks Mike and damon. a little thermodynamics refresher was in order. looks like some other posters could use it too.

In a month or two I'll try to conduct some tests and measure the heat of some powders on opposite ends of that list. if the results are interesting, i'll post them

thanks again

 

[dcali]

thanks Mike and damon. a little thermodynamics refresher was in order. looks like some other posters could use it too.

In a month or two I'll try to conduct some tests and measure the heat of some powders on opposite ends of that list. if the results are interesting, i'll post them

thanks again

I would be very interested in any such data. One of my weekend projects is to build my own personal version of QuickLOAD as a way of learning more about internal ballistics. So anything you could share would be hugely appreciated.

 

[Webster]

Can someone explain the concern for flame temp? You might eliminate many great powders based on temp. TALIV you said you were going to measure flame temp. How are you going to do this? Are you trying to relate temp to barrel erosion. Sounds like a waste of time. There are charts that relate over bore (ratio of powder weight to bore diameter) to barrel wear. These charts seem to correlate well. The damage to barrels is called "Hot Gas Erosion". The damage is temp related but a big factor is the volume of hot gas being driven down the barrel at super sonic speeds and 50,000 PSI. You guys need to quit playing scientist and just work up good loads and go shooting.

 

[Brians356]

You guys need to quit playing scientist and just work up good loads and go shooting.

How does a scientist quit playing scientist?

 

[searcher]

I'll preface this by stating I know little (if anything) about burning temps of different powders. I look at the above chart listing the high temperatures - and keep thinking about what I have read so many times in the advertising of W748 powder, having been enamed that due to the supposed 748 degree burning temperature, which the manufacturer states is "very low" in the ads. Clearly, there seem to be very different ways to measuring burning temperatures, as I cvan't imagine the temps being that different.

 

[mikecr]

I wish I knew what powder numbers and names mean.
Probably about as much as Mercedes model designations(Their service techs can't even keep em straight)....