flame temp list?

[dcali]

Can someone explain the concern for flame temp? You might eliminate many great powders based on temp. TALIV you said you were going to measure flame temp. How are you going to do this? Are you trying to relate temp to barrel erosion. Sounds like a waste of time. There are charts that relate over bore (ratio of powder weight to bore diameter) to barrel wear. These charts seem to correlate well. The damage to barrels is called "Hot Gas Erosion". The damage is temp related but a big factor is the volume of hot gas being driven down the barrel at super sonic speeds and 50,000 PSI. You guys need to quit playing scientist and just work up good loads and go shooting.

Or... we can keep learning and figuring things out. Last time I checked, I can't shoot in my living room, and I get tired of hearing people talk about "what a gun likes" as if they were people. It's not magic. It's science. I don't accept "seem to correlate well" as the best we can do.

But to answer your question, the adiabatic flame temperature of the powder relates to the temperature throughout combustion, and temperature is an integral part of internal ballistics. It impacts everything from pressure curves to barrel erosion.

 

[Webster]

We don't have the equipment to do scientific research in our basement. Do you really think a discussion on flame temp will lead to new records being set? There are other things to worry about. I doubt any of the many world records were set by people that needed to know what was going on inside a cartridge case as far as thermodynamics.

 

[taliv]

We don't have the equipment to do scientific research in our basement. Do you really think a discussion on flame temp will lead to new records being set? There are other things to worry about. I doubt any of the many world records were set by people that needed to know what was going on inside a cartridge case as far as thermodynamics.

we are a little alike, in that we both lack understanding. You can't fathom how I can do science. And I can't imagine why you would try to stop me.

The difference is I'm trying to learn. For instance, since it would be easier to ignore topics you're not interested in than to attempt to convince people you don't know that they shouldn't engage in science or worse, that it's not possible for them, I am now curious about why you would go out of your way to appear that obtuse. Why would you make assumptions about what I have in my basement? Or how much I shoot? or that I'd be uninterested in anything that didn't result in new records being set? And especially why would you assume I can't measure relative temperature??

I have no idea what you have to worry about, but I am not really losing sleep over anything at the moment, and feel at liberty to explore.

 

[Brians356]

we are a little alike, in that we both lack understanding. You can't fathom how I can do science. And I can't imagine why you would try to stop me.

The difference is I'm trying to learn. For instance, since it would be easier to ignore topics you're not interested in than to attempt to convince people you don't know that they shouldn't engage in science or worse, that it's not possible for them, I am now curious about why you would go out of your way to appear that obtuse. Why would you make assumptions about what I have in my basement? Or how much I shoot? or that I'd be uninterested in anything that didn't result in new records being set? And especially why would you assume I can't measure relative temperature??

I have no idea what you have to worry about, but I am not really losing sleep over anything at the moment, and feel at liberty to explore.

Thank you, sir, you made my morning. Since you employed the word "obtuse", from now on in my mind I will hear your voice as Andy Dufresne's - for better or worse (Tim Robbins' political views notwithstanding.)

Probably if you or I had ever actually set (or come close to setting) a world shooting record (as Webster possibly has) our lives might also revolve around that goal. Until then, we'll just have to "Endeavor to persevere!" as mere plebeians. Is knowledge for its own sake worth seeking?

We have come out of the time when obedience, the acceptance of discipline, intelligent courage, and resolution were most important, into that more difficult time when it is a man's duty to understand his world rather than to simply fight for it.

Ernest Hemingway (1946)

 

[dcali]

We don't have the equipment to do scientific research in our basement. Do you really think a discussion on flame temp will lead to new records being set? There are other things to worry about. I doubt any of the many world records were set by people that needed to know what was going on inside a cartridge case as far as thermodynamics.

We don't have shooting ranges in our basements. Do you really think that shooting world records will lead to greater understanding of ballistics and firearms technology? There are other things to learn about. I doubt any of the men who have advanced this kind of knowledge needed to set world records.

 

[Webster]

I have worked 45 years in R&D at large corporations. It isn't reasonable to think firearms technology will be advanced by home hobbyist. They already know how to shoot 25 shot aggregates under 0.200" at 100 yards. Do you think studying flame temp will reduce this aggregate size? Most of the improvement comes from our shooting skills. Some one I talk to once in a while that is in the hall of fame was asked what he thought was the biggest improvement in the last 20 years, he said better wind flags. During an interview Tony Boyer said that 90% of the rifles on the firing line were good enough to win but out of several hundred competitors the winner almost always comes from an elite group of about 20 competitors.

 

[dcali]

We are not trying to shoot better groups. We are trying to learn about propellant flame temperatures.

 

[Brians356]

I have worked 45 years in R&D at large corporations. It isn't reasonable to think firearms technology will be advanced by home hobbyist. They already know how to shoot 25 shot aggregates under 0.200" at 100 yards. Do you think studying flame temp will reduce this aggregate size? Most of the improvement comes from our shooting skills. Some one I talk to once in a while that is in the hall of fame was asked what he thought was the biggest improvement in the last 20 years, he said better wind flags.

Just curious, and I should have asked sooner: What, in any of OPs comments, made you feel he was interested in reducing aggregate size? In fact, I find no indication in his comments that he is the least bit interested in firearms technology, for accuracy or otherwise. He is interested in powder flame temperatures. Full stop.

Oh, and thanks for the tip on wind flags. Noted.

 

[Webster]

I thought technology was supposed to make a rifle more accurate. What other purpose should it have???

 

[mikecr]

Longer lasting barrel life
Field accurate/BR precise, at multi-distances
Corrosion resistant
More/less powerful
Quieter
Lighter
Shorter
Balanced
Look better
Single shot/Magazine fed
faster/easier cycling
Blocked/bedded
cooler
cheaper

 

[TC260]

You guys need to quit playing scientist and just work up good loads and go shooting.

You need to go do what makes you happy and let us talk about what makes us happy. If you don't like what's being discussed, don't read it .

 

[taliv]

I have worked 45 years in R&D at large corporations. It isn't reasonable to think firearms technology will be advanced by home hobbyist. They already know how to shoot 25 shot aggregates under 0.200" at 100 yards. Do you think studying flame temp will reduce this aggregate size? Most of the improvement comes from our shooting skills. Some one I talk to once in a while that is in the hall of fame was asked what he thought was the biggest improvement in the last 20 years, he said better wind flags. During an interview Tony Boyer said that 90% of the rifles on the firing line were good enough to win but out of several hundred competitors the winner almost always comes from an elite group of about 20 competitors.

I also have spent my time in R&D and my current employer has topped the list of annual patent recipients for 22 years in a row now. I've always been surrounded by researchers, but none of them think like you do. Nobody with a future in R&D says, "I know the damage is temp related, but I don't know what the relationship is, or what the range of temperatures is, or what effect it has, but gosh darnit, I heard somebody on the internet say thinking about it is a waste of time! So I'll spend my time trying to convince others not to think about it." wtf? over

Brian, you're right. My hobby is sniper/field style matches and my rifles are plenty accurate for that. I've shot a little over 40 matches in the past 4-5 years and burnt out 9 barrels in the process. The occasional "unlimited rounds on a mover in 2 minutes" stages like the snipershide cup 2 weeks ago aren't helping barrel life, either. My problem is the PRS matches are starting to get bunched up in the Spring, and with so many back-to-back weekends, it's hard to get a new barrel sorted out between matches. So I'm wondering if a change in powder might extend the barrel life just enough to get me through one more match to prevent more drastic measures of maintaining multiple match rifles. With longer strings of fire, seems like even a little less heat per shot would be desirable. Given the distance on the chart i posted between reloader 17 and H100v, I am thinking I will conduct a little test to see if H100v is cooler, and if it is then I'll try H100v for 1 barrel and compare the life to the previous ones.

 

[Brians356]

Methinks Webster's tongue was firmly in his cheek.

 

[dcali]

Not directly applicable, but you might find this interesting:

http://www.arl.army.mil/arlreports/1999/ARL-TR-1954.pdf

 

[Webster]

Not directly applicable, but you might find this interesting:

Very nice article. I think it shows my view point that some of this internal ballistics stuff is not a home project ($$$$$$$). You cannot do this kind of work at home. Even if you could relate flame temp to something, how would you define success. There is no point in doing it if you cannot define success.

 

[dcali]

Not directly applicable, but you might find this interesting:

Very nice article. I think it shows my view point that some of this internal ballistics stuff is not a home project ($$$$$$$). You cannot do this kind of work at home. Even if you could relate flame temp to something, how would you define success. There is no point in doing it if you cannot define success.

Did you actually read the paper? How does doing calculations cost money? Can I write a ballistics calculator (internal or external) at home or must that also only be done by the military industrial complex?

 

[Webster]

You never stated what you are trying to accomplish related to flame temp. There was more than calculations. Photos showing different degrees of erosion related to temp. The flame temp is the peak temp. Maybe the average is more important than some instantaneous value. Do you know what formulas to use for the calculations or are you going to make them up? How do you determine what your calculation has accomplished? Any tiny result get lost among the 25 other variables. If you force a program to give a little different result than QuickLoad it doesn't prove your results are an improvement. There are better things to spend your time on. How many lines of code are there in QL? I believe you said you would measure the flame temp for several powders. Please explain how you will do this.

The big problem. Even if you calculate some final result number you have to somehow determine how it affects velocity, barrel time, nodes, pressure or whatever your trying to do and incorporate it into the program. Since everyone thinks QL is good for what it's intended to be used for where do you see a need for improvement? If you make a 2% improvement it gets lost among all the other variables. Someone flamed me by saying why am I trying to relate what you are doing to accuracy, Your goal was only an interest in technology and to create a program similar to QL. What do I have against Technology. I thought the purpose of QL was to quickly find safe accurate loads.

Even though flame temp isn't entered into QL isn't it indirectly accounted for based on the program results seem accurate. QL users adjust the burn rate to match the chronograph fps they get in the real world.

 

[dcali]

Adiabatic flame temperature is an input to several internal ballistics calculations. I just posted an example of one. The adiabatic flame temperature is *not* the peak temperature during the real-life combustion of firing a round, and I don't intend to measure/calculate it. As you said, it's difficult. But unlike you, I don't make assumptions about what others are capable of doing. So if someone out there (it's a big world) *can* do this and is willing to share their knowledge, then I want to know about it. Perhaps they do have some equipment in their basement (or more likely, at their place of work). Maybe they work for a company that makes powder.

I *do* know the "formulas" for the calculations, or at least some of them, and I intend to learn about more of them. What on earth makes you want me to stop? It's incredibly presumptuous of you to tell me how to spend my time. So this is the last time I'm going to say this: My interest in this topic has nothing to do with shooting better. My interest is in understanding how things work and having some fun.

 

[Brians356]

There are better things to spend your time on.

Respice te ipsum.

 

[Erud]

You never stated what you are trying to accomplish related to flame temp. There was more than calculations. Photos showing different degrees of erosion related to temp. The flame temp is the peak temp. Maybe the average is more important than some instantaneous value. Do you know what formulas to use for the calculations or are you going to make them up? How do you determine what your calculation has accomplished? Any tiny result get lost among the 25 other variables. If you force a program to give a little different result than QuickLoad it doesn't prove your results are an improvement. There are better things to spend your time on. How many lines of code are there in QL? I believe you said you would measure the flame temp for several powders. Please explain how you will do this.

The big problem. Even if you calculate some final result number you have to somehow determine how it affects velocity, barrel time, nodes, pressure or whatever your trying to do and incorporate it into the program. Since everyone thinks QL is good for what it's intended to be used for where do you see a need for improvement? If you make a 2% improvement it gets lost among all the other variables. Someone flamed me by saying why am I trying to relate what you are doing to accuracy, Your goal was only an interest in technology and to create a program similar to QL. What do I have against Technology. I thought the purpose of QL was to quickly find safe accurate loads.

Even though flame temp isn't entered into QL isn't it indirectly accounted for based on the program results seem accurate. QL users adjust the burn rate to match the chronograph fps they get in the real world.

Webster,
It's too bad you weren't around in Thomas Edison's day, maybe you could have saved us from all the hassle of this electricity nonsense!