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First time loading/shooting a ladder today.

I've been reloading for about 5 years now, hunting loads only until I shot in the short bench rest league at my local range this past summer.I REALLY enjoyed that and did fairly well, it also pushed my intentions of improving my reloading. Before now I have typically chosen a random low/mid powder charge, mix some random seating depths in and see what happens!

Starting up a load for a new to me Cooper 6.5-284, using 140 VLD-H and H4831SC. Pretty happy with the initial results, though I remembered after I was finished shooting this that I should have shot at 200 or 300m.

UQCc2pY.png


Picture is a little blurry for some reason, sorry. Looks promising in the 49.9 - 50.3 range, which is what I have read is very typical for this combination. Possible another node at 50.7, but 2800 fps may be getting a little hot on the barrel?

With that being said, I've read that 2950 is a typical speed for the 140 bullet. Maybe a different powder would get me there, but again, would that extra 200fps be worth it?

Looking at the target, I fired 3 foulers that grouped about 1" (not shown), then started the ladder. Note how the first 2 shots were significantly lower than the rest, I found this strange. Maybe the Cooper likes 5 or 6 foulers to get in the groove?

Loaded with new Lapua brass (sizing mandrel to clean up the necks), Fed210M, pretty big jump at .040", need it this long to get .264 in the neck. (not sure I'm happy about this, seems like a really long chamber?), aftermarket barrel - Bob Jury 26".

Any insight or comments appreciated.

Kelly
 
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Unfortunately, you'll not learn much from a ladder at 100 yards. I like 400-600 yards to get a good idea. Try to pick a day with little wind.

If you don't have access to that distance, you can shoot 3 shot groups at 100 yards with .3 or .5 gr increments. Find smallest groups that impact target and land in same POI position. An excellent post tagged here for 100 yard load work up.
 
If you go back to test more, take your best shot at fouling the bbl and making sure that all repeats before starting up with your ladder rounds.

Also, if you are already convinced you won't use either the slowest or hottest parts of the testing you have already run, skip those the next time out and focus on the ones that you will use.

The rig shows a good potential all the way through from 49.7 and up, so I would only do one more sweep at the farthest distance you feel comfortable with and pick a charge weight to run another sweep for seating depth. On the next run, if you could take the measure of the verticals in addition to speeds, you will see if there is any obvious node.

Your seating depth sweep is the place where you will probably see the rig's potential. How much "jump" do you think you have at 2.445"?
 
If you haven't pressured out, I'd keep going higher in charge weight.
I feel your next node is just around the corner.
I'm having a hard time deciding if I'm pressuring up or not. There are slight ejector marks and a bit of swipe on almost all of the cases, right from the low charges. The primers look fine and show no change from low to high. Looking at them this morning, I feel they must be fine, perhaps because of the initial firing they are soft and imprinting easy? I haven't measured anything yet, later today.

In the pics below, the lightest load is bottom left (bottom row), increasing to the right and upwards. The top 2 are 51.3 and 51.5 where I stopped, both above Bergers max load data.

rWaQTlD.jpg

Vg4qhEl.jpg


Also, there are some clickers when extracting the case. It was more pronounced in the spring when I took the gun out for the first time, I've never experienced this before. I felt a few yesterday as well.
 
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Exactly! If you have a 26" barrel, using H-4831 you should top out around 2950 fps with a 140 gr. bullet. My two are very accurate in that node, but my hunting loads are 3,040 & 3,050 with Retumbo.
I've read similar before, and was expecting to see that. It is a 26", 8 twist barrel. Perhaps the cold temperature slowed it down as well, temp was -8C (17F) ?
 
I'm having a hard time deciding if I'm pressuring up or not. There are slight ejector marks and a bit of swipe on almost all of the cases, right from the low charges. The primers look fine and show no change from low to high. Looking at them this morning, I feel they must be fine, perhaps because of the initial firing they are soft and imprinting easy? I haven't measured anything yet, later today.

In the pics below, the lightest load is bottom left (bottom row), increasing to the right and upwards. The top 2 are 51.3 and 51.5 where I stopped, both above Bergers max load data.

rWaQTlD.jpg

Vg4qhEl.jpg


Also, there are some clickers when extracting the case. It was more pronounced in the spring when I took the gun out for the first time, I've never experienced this before. I felt a few yesterday as well.
Is this the 1st hit on the brass?
I've seen marks on case heads on new brass due to expansion knowing I was below max.
Clickers are definitely do not go higher indicators.
I can't explain why your 140's are basically running creedmoor speeds for a 26" barrel other than outside temperature.
 
Is this the 1st hit on the brass?
I've seen marks on case heads on new brass due to expansion knowing I was below max.
Clickers are definitely do not go higher indicators.
I can't explain why your 140's are basically running creedmoor speeds for a 26" barrel other than outside temperature.
First firing of the brass, yes.
The action of this Cooper is quite different than my other rifles, short bolt throw and in a 'different direction' if you will. But yes, I believe there are some clickers, I need to force the bolt open ocassionally, can happen at a low charge then not again until higher. When I look at how the bolt interfaces with the top of the action (cocking ramp??) it seems odd to me, I put a small amount of grease there but not sure it helped.
 
Just my thoughts,

Shooting a new to you rifle, with what appears to be near max (or over) charges and getting ejector marks, extractor swipes, and clickers (I hate that term). Your are quoting others velocities but what barrel length?

If you aren't having pressure issues what will determine when you will?
 
First firing of the brass, yes.
The action of this Cooper is quite different than my other rifles, short bolt throw and in a 'different direction' if you will. But yes, I believe there are some clickers, I need to force the bolt open ocassionally, can happen at a low charge then not again until higher. When I look at how the bolt interfaces with the top of the action (cocking ramp??) it seems odd to me, I put a small amount of grease there but not sure it helped.
Here's where we need someone with more experience than I can offer about the clickers.
 
Clickers are time to go to secondary observations and deeper research.

Indications of extractor marks when pressure should not be high, can still cause a worry. Some other causes are a rough bolt face or delicate brass finish. I don't like it when they show early either.

What action are we discussing, is this an original Cooper or modification?
What chamber reamer?
What Jump?
Might be time to take close measurements of the case heads right at the web blend.

Sometimes, but not always, there are "other reasons" for the perception of clickers, but the danger is ignoring them at face value. As a minimum they throw a flag to take a closer look at everything.
 
If you go back to test more, take your best shot at fouling the bbl and making sure that all repeats before starting up with your ladder rounds.

Also, if you are already convinced you won't use either the slowest or hottest parts of the testing you have already run, skip those the next time out and focus on the ones that you will use.

The rig shows a good potential all the way through from 49.7 and up, so I would only do one more sweep at the farthest distance you feel comfortable with and pick a charge weight to run another sweep for seating depth. On the next run, if you could take the measure of the verticals in addition to speeds, you will see if there is any obvious node.

Your seating depth sweep is the place where you will probably see the rig's potential. How much "jump" do you think you have at 2.445"?
I'm planning to do another test at 300, this is the furthest I've shot at targets before. I just joined a second club, longest range there is 600 which I'm looking forward to attempting someday.

2.445 gives me 0.080" jump. For some reason I've had quite a difficult time getting CBTO measurements with this gun. Using the Hornady tool and case, values were seeming to jump all over so I finally resorted to a jam measurement as opposed to touch which I typically use.
 
Clickers are time to go to secondary observations and deeper research.

Indications of extractor marks when pressure should not be high, can still cause a worry. Some other causes are a rough bolt face or delicate brass finish. I don't like it when they show early either.

What action are we discussing, is this an original Cooper or modification? Rifle had approx 200 rounds through it when I bought. New barrel was installed by what I believe is a reputable shop (Insite Arms) here in Alberta, before I bought it. Previous owner put less than 20 rounds through it, needed money for another build and sold it.
What chamber reamer? I don't know, I emailed Insite when I first bought it asking for chamber dimensions/make and they simply said it is to SAAMI standards.
What Jump? About 0.080. Needs this much to get .264 in the neck. CBTO=2.445 COAL=3.105
Might be time to take close measurements of the case heads right at the web blend. I agree, here's what I came up with, see image below.

Sometimes, but not always, there are "other reasons" for the perception of clickers, but the danger is ignoring them at face value. As a minimum they throw a flag to take a closer look at everything.
These are measurements I just took between 3 cases, the new case is unfired but has had a Sinclair sizing mandrel run through it. (first time doing that as well :) )

Taken the best I could with my Mitutoyo analog calipers.

ScROilg.png
 
Your shooting at 100 says you will do fine at 600. Give yourself a chance to settle the load and then you will learn to read wind. It takes some time, so give yourself a chance and lots of time. It won't happen in one or two sessions. By all means, attend any highpower matches and ask questions. I am sure they will adopt you.

If your reamer isn't anything special, your 0.497 above the web sounds fine. If you have a measurement of once fired and also twice fired and so on, try to make mesurements on those ones that give you the click and well as ones that don't. Issues with clickers are often easy to find with a micrometer in my own experience. But I will say the differences are often in the fourth decimal point near the web. ETA: if and when you get to 0.500 near there, you may start having issues, so be sure your numbers are from a micrometer, not a caliper. A nice post that had some video by Alex is running again so I will put it here.

https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/clickers.4009702/


Nothing wrong with starting out with a big jump. You can run your depth sweep from nearly touching on up if this is a field or hunting rig.

Keep your eye on everything and separate the ones that click just to be sure there is nothing funny about that brass.

Looking forward to the field report.

Happy New Year!!!
 
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Your shooting at 100 says you will do fine at 600. Give yourself a chance to settle the load and then you will learn to read wind. It takes some time, so give yourself a chance and lots of time. It won't happen in one or two sessions. By all means, attend any highpower matches and ask questions. I am sure they will adopt you.

If your reamer isn't anything special, your 0.497 above the web sounds fine. If you have a measurement of once fired and also twice fired and so on, try to make mesurements on those ones that give you the click and well as ones that don't. Issues with clickers are often easy to find with a micrometer in my own experience. But I will say the differences are often in the fourth decimal point near the web. ETA: if and when you get to 0.500 near there, you may start having issues, so be sure your numbers are from a micrometer, not a caliper. A nice post that had some video by Alex is running again so I will put it here.

https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/clickers.4009702/


Nothing wrong with starting out with a big jump. You can run your depth sweep from nearly touching on up if this is a field or hunting rig.

Keep your eye on everything and separate the ones that click just to be sure there is nothing funny about that brass.

Looking forward to the field report.

Happy New Year!!!
Happy New Year to you as well, and thanks for the info and encouragement.

I'm certainly looking forward to reaching out a little with my shooting!
 
I may have missed something but could your loaded neck OD be a little tight for the chamber?
I've wondered that as well, maybe I need to turn the brass? This is something I've never done. Assuming a precise chamber casting would be required to do that. May need to involve a gunsmith.
 
Dose a bullet slide freely into a fired case? If so your chamber neck maybe around.298 or.299 from your fired case measurements.. Compare that to the loaded neck OD. Should get you close. It looks like a .298 neck is standard spec.
 
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