Just quickley looking at the video he is just repeating what non-metallurgical people believe. He has no idea of what annealing temperatures and times are. He says you have to put the cases in water after annealing to prevent the case heads from getting soft. It's impossible to overheat the case heads. He needs to read the good info on the AMPS website. He is just a basement tinkerer pretending he is an expert.
First-Time Annealing v.IsThisNormal?
- Thread starter TSFineGuns
- Start date
The change in flame color has nothing to do with annealing or damaging the brass. I stop annealing when I get a red color, I just do them all the same time. Once the case neck gets red changes start happening much faster and harder to control. I just accept whatever hardness I get. I am happy to shoot .350-..400" groups. Not trying to compete with anyone. The Webber tool only used from 15-18 units on brass, Not much spread. I don't think brass necks get near 131 VH units. Good data on the AMPS website.It appears like I might have to have to make an adjustment to my annealing process??? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I recently bought a Webster Hardness Tester to test my various brass for the harness of their necks and to see how the results of my annealing compares to the likes of Lapua virgin brass. It's not a tool that's going to give you any kind of true Vickers harness result, but it can be used somewhat like a comparator.
First, upon getting the tool, I took a reading on the test strips to see if the tool gave me the reading I was supposed to get, and it did. Next, I tested some different virgin Lapua and Peterson brass that I've been hanging onto. The readings for my virgin Lapua brass were consistently at ~14.5 and the Petersons were just a hair over 15 (the higher the number, the harder the brass). Now I wanted to see what numbers I get with the cases I've annealed. I took readings from various various Lapua brass that has been fired a number of times and annealed after every firing and consistently got a reading @17; not as soft as I thought I was going to see. Then measuring my fired and annealed Peterson brass and my Federal brass and they too measured @17 (was expecting Federal brass to be different). Apparently, my use of the "glow method" was not getting my necks as "annealed" as I thought.
When I use the "glow method", in a darkened room I look for the necks to begin to glow and have the cases drop out of the flame at that moment. This has been working just fine in getting a good and consistent seating. But apparently, I'm going to have to let the necks stay in the flame a little longer after they start to glow if I want to get the hardness to the same level as Lapua virgin brass.This is something I'll have to be testing for a while to see what the results might indicate.
Reaching back in my stash, I pulled a box of Lapua that I had just fired and annealed twice, before I really started using the "glow method". The method I used with them when annealing was to simply wait for that orangish-yellow flame to appear and then let the case drop when that happened. In testing the hardness of these, the reading was @ 18; not a surprise given my glow method was giving me something a little softer as expected.
I've got a small tub of test brass (mostly Federal range brass that I've picked up) that I use when setting up the timing for annealing and I know some of those were well over heated. Sure enough, I was getting some readings from 11 to 12 and a few at 14. I didn't expect any consistency since adjustments were being made with them to get the timing where I wanted it.
I'll report back after making some adjustments to the timing of my annealing process about what I've observed in terms of the harness test as well as what I might see when seating and the shooting results.
BTW: According to the manual that came with the tool, a reading of 15 is ~99 on the Vickers HV scale and a reading of 18 is ~ 131.
View attachment 1605761
The University of ILL published charts for various temp. The below chart shows what going on. They used small cold rolled coupons. Constant temp in a furnace. If it doesn't anneal in 30 sec or 2 mintes in a furnace it's not going to flash anneal where you go up to temp and remove the heat. It's only at max temp for a fraction of a second.
It can get confusing there are many hardness scales used to report data. Just look at the trends.
The chart is for 450C=842F. Time is total time in the furnace.
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Looking for a change in flame color is really only a timing mechanism and certainly doesn't say much about heat level. That's the only way I see flame color having any use in the process or annealing brass. From what I've observed, that flame color can produce different timing depending on different methods of cleaning brass leaving behind different residues of different amounts.
Your point about achieving max temperature is only for a fraction of a second and the timing difficulty when at the higher temperatures are good points; rather technical issues, but good points to be aware of none the less.
Getting just the right hardness/grain-size is not really a big issue for me either. If it was, I'd be using an AMP machine.
I'm really after extending brass life and reasonable consistency from my annealing process since I don't compete with anyone either. Being a tinkerer, I enjoy playing with things to see what works, what doesn't and how much something does or doesn't work. This is simply what I'm doing with my annealing with a flame and why I bought the Webster Harness Tester. I don't work with turbine engines any more. When AMP did their testing, I wish they'd done some flame annealing tests instead of just that salt bath annealing. Since so many reloaders do flame annealing, it makes me wonder if they avoided doing the flame annealing tests because there might not be as much difference in the data from induction annealing. Maybe some day they'll get around to it. . .??? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
jxb
Gold $$ Contributor
Before getting the AGS unit I read quite a few articles on annealing brass with most being specific to bottle neck brass (6mmbr, bisonbalistics, and several others).
I also read some of the AMP stuff and watched a video or two where they went through their process and testing. The AMP video where they went over how they test hardness to arrive at their codes was really interesting, but while I may have missed it what I never saw them do was give the time under induction and temperature achieved data. Of course anyone using one can track the time, but it would be helpful to know these two items for use with flame annealing. That said, I'm guessing that's exactly why they don't provide it. They are in the business of selling AMP units, so it's totally understandable. There's also the fact that the data could be used incorrectly.
I also read some of the AMP stuff and watched a video or two where they went through their process and testing. The AMP video where they went over how they test hardness to arrive at their codes was really interesting, but while I may have missed it what I never saw them do was give the time under induction and temperature achieved data. Of course anyone using one can track the time, but it would be helpful to know these two items for use with flame annealing. That said, I'm guessing that's exactly why they don't provide it. They are in the business of selling AMP units, so it's totally understandable. There's also the fact that the data could be used incorrectly.
Agree 100% AMPS should provide flame annealing data. I have seen a lot of real annealing data and wonder why the AMPS annealer makes it look like you need 50 different codes to determine the proper setting. I guess it's because it's induction coupled to the case. There really isn't a huge differance in cases. Small length and thickness variation. I performed many heat treat studies in my career mostly with steel. Done thousands of microhardness surveys. I have to say all the hardness data on the AMPS website is first class work and I would never question what they publish.Looking for a change in flame color is really only a timing mechanism and certainly doesn't say much about heat level. That's the only way I see flame color having any use in the process or annealing brass. From what I've observed, that flame color can produce different timing depending on different methods of cleaning brass leaving behind different residues of different amounts.
Your point about achieving max temperature is only for a fraction of a second and the timing difficulty when at the higher temperatures are good points; rather technical issues, but good points to be aware of none the less.
Getting just the right hardness/grain-size is not really a big issue for me either. If it was, I'd be using an AMP machine.
When AMP did their testing, I wish they'd done some flame annealing tests instead of just that salt bath annealing. Since so many reloaders do flame annealing, it makes me wonder if they avoided doing the flame annealing tests because there might not be as much difference in the data from induction annealing. Maybe some day they'll get around to it. . .??? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
You cannot flash anneal brass up to reaching 750F and then remove the heat. It's only at 750F for a fraction of a second. No reason to put 400F TempLaq on the body.
Bottom line I will always anneal with my hand held propane torch and be happy with whatever the results are.
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Correct the flame color depends on what elements are being heated. Residue from powder, Cu, Zn and whatever.Looking for a change in flame color is really only a timing mechanism and certainly doesn't say much about heat level. That's the only way I see flame color having any use in the process or annealing brass. From what I've observed, that flame color can produce different timing depending on different methods of cleaning brass leaving behind different residues of different amounts.
Your point about achieving max temperature is only for a fraction of a second and the timing difficulty when at the higher temperatures are good points; rather technical issues, but good points to be aware of none the less.
Getting just the right hardness/grain-size is not really a big issue for me either. If it was, I'd be using an AMP machine.
When AMP did their testing, I wish they'd done some flame annealing tests instead of just that salt bath annealing. Since so many reloaders do flame annealing, it makes me wonder if they avoided doing the flame annealing tests because there might not be as much difference in the data from induction annealing. Maybe some day they'll get around to it. . .??? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I am not part of the Webster Co.It appears like I might have to have to make an adjustment to my annealing process??? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I recently bought a Webster Hardness Tester to test my various brass for the harness of their necks and to see how the results of my annealing compares to the likes of Lapua virgin brass. It's not a tool that's going to give you any kind of true Vickers harness result, but it can be used somewhat like a comparator.
First, upon getting the tool, I took a reading on the test strips to see if the tool gave me the reading I was supposed to get, and it did. Next, I tested some different virgin Lapua and Peterson brass that I've been hanging onto. The readings for my virgin Lapua brass were consistently at ~14.5 and the Petersons were just a hair over 15 (the higher the number, the harder the brass). Now I wanted to see what numbers I get with the cases I've annealed. I took readings from various various Lapua brass that has been fired a number of times and annealed after every firing and consistently got a reading @17; not as soft as I thought I was going to see. Then measuring my fired and annealed Peterson brass and my Federal brass and they too measured @17 (was expecting Federal brass to be different). Apparently, my use of the "glow method" was not getting my necks as "annealed" as I thought.
When I use the "glow method", in a darkened room I look for the necks to begin to glow and have the cases drop out of the flame at that moment. This has been working just fine in getting a good and consistent seating. But apparently, I'm going to have to let the necks stay in the flame a little longer after they start to glow if I want to get the hardness to the same level as Lapua virgin brass.
Reaching back in my stash, I pulled a box of Lapua that I had just fired and annealed twice, before I really started using the "glow method". The method I used with them when annealing was to simply wait for that orangish-yellow flame to appear and then let the case drop when that happened. In testing the hardness of these, the reading was @ 18; not a surprise given my glow method was giving me something a little softer as expected.
I've got a small tub of test brass (mostly Federal range brass that I've picked up) that I use when setting up the timing for annealing and I know some of those were well over heated. Sure enough, I was getting some readings from 11 to 12 and a few at 14. I didn't expect any consistency since adjustments were being made with them to get the timing where I wanted it.
I'll report back after making some adjustments to the timing of my annealing process about what I've observed in terms of the harness test as well as what I might see when seating and the shooting results.
BTW: According to the manual that came with the tool, a reading of 15 is ~99 on the Vickers HV scale and a reading of 18 is ~ 131.
View attachment 1605761
Webster hardness tester.
If there are marks on the back side of the test piece from the indenter the result is not valid per ASTM specs. The metal piece is to thin for the load that's applied.
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About the flame color change. Looks like it happens at a certain temp. It's not related to any damage to the brass. I have also noticed when the brass is in the flame for a while it gets a yellow color. The color you get depends on the particular elements that are being heated.Looking for a change in flame color is really only a timing mechanism and certainly doesn't say much about heat level. That's the only way I see flame color having any use in the process or annealing brass. From what I've observed, that flame color can produce different timing depending on different methods of cleaning brass leaving behind different residues of different amounts.
Your point about achieving max temperature is only for a fraction of a second and the timing difficulty when at the higher temperatures are good points; rather technical issues, but good points to be aware of none the less.
Getting just the right hardness/grain-size is not really a big issue for me either. If it was, I'd be using an AMP machine.
When AMP did their testing, I wish they'd done some flame annealing tests instead of just that salt bath annealing. Since so many reloaders do flame annealing, it makes me wonder if they avoided doing the flame annealing tests because there might not be as much difference in the data from induction annealing. Maybe some day they'll get around to it. . .??? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
When energy is supplied to an atom through light or heating a substance, the electrons absorb part of the energy and jump from a low-energy or ground state to a higher energy level or excited state. Consider a single electron. After absorbing energy, it moves faster and farther from the nucleus. The electron is in an excited state. However, the excited state is not stable, and thus the electron ultimately returns to its original, lower-energy ground state. The electron falls back to its lower-energy or ground state, once previously absorbed energy is released. The energy emitted is a photon of light of specific wavelength or color. A flame test exposes electrons to heat, resulting in signature colors of flame , enabling identification of elements.
Yes, it has appeared to me that the color change happens at a certain temperature and why I was saying it's really nothing more than a timing mechanism. I've observed a difference between a case where the neck has been wiped clean, inside and out, with steel wool to remove all residue left from cleaning and one that's been wet tumbled with Dawn and Lemi Shine then dried after some rinsing. I've also observed a difference from annealing cases after dry tumbling as well as cases annealed before any cleaning process. This leads me to conclude that those differences were due to differences in residue left behind by the cleaning process. My testing was spurred by claims that the color was due to zinc was being burned out of the brass, an alloy, and my understanding that it can't actually be "burned out" until the alloy is liquified. . .which takes a lot of heat. . . like AMP melting case necks during their test for a code setting.
Oh, when Zn burns, it's a bluish-green flame, not orangish or yellow.
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